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Post by fots2 on May 31, 2010 0:46:17 GMT 8
Hi mapmaster,
That is good information, thanks.
On the 1941 map, the 37mm gun may have been mounted in one of the V-F-1 gun positions. The location looks correct.
The placement of the machine guns seems to follow the two trench lines I can see today. Some of those guns, especially the most northerly ones, may very well have been placed at the trench and bunker that we are talking about here.
There is no date or name for this structure above the doorway.
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Post by mapmaster on May 31, 2010 7:33:23 GMT 8
Hi fots2
The gun marked on the 1941 Emergency Plan is a 37mm. This was an infantry weapon, which could be carried by 3 men or could be trailed on wheels and pulled by the gun team.
V-F-1 was, by 1936, a twin emplacement for 2 x 6 pdrs on pedestal mounts. The emplacement was probably originally built for the 6 pdrs. If these guns were gone by 1941, the emplacement may have been modified for use with other armament.
There is no other mention of emplacements, either side of Ramsay Ravine, on the 1941 Emergency Plan.
Regards
mapmaster
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Post by fots2 on Jun 7, 2010 0:57:38 GMT 8
Battery Hartford (3-inch AA gun battery) “At 7:30 P.M., received orders from the Battalion Commander to move to field alert position at Battery Ramsay. We were to move the gun position and men to a field camp in the near vicinity of Battery Ramsay; be prepared to fire for effect; and for noon mess in the field at noon of the following day, Nov. 29th, 1941.
Orders were issued to the 1st Sergeant that evening for evacuating our gun position and quarters at Middleside barracks. This move was made. The gun battery was moved and placed in firing position, occupying a position on, and in front of, parapet of Battery Ramsay.
Protecting walls to guns and equipment were built above the ground, as the ground was very stony, and frequent large boulders prevented excavation below ground level.
Director and Height Finder were protected by two rows of sand bags, shoulder high, surrounded by a row of dirt-filled powder cans, and the whole position sloped to the outside ground level with dirt fill.
The 3-inch guns were protected by a dirt wall three feet in thickness and six and one-half feet in height, encircling the guns and allowing sufficient room for operation of the piece. These walls were built over the end sections of the spider-mount out-riggers.” (text from Corregidor.org) The recent dry season was an ideal time to go see if anything remained of Battery Hartford. Today this area is littered with large and small chunks of concrete blown there when Battery Ramsay was destroyed by bombs in 1945. Add to that many craters plus misc junk of war and I expected to find little to nothing of this hastily constructed 3-inch anti-aircraft battery. The map shows the location of the Height Finder to be almost touching the parapet in front of Battery Ramsay Gun #2. This parapet was totally destroyed and I see no remnants of the Height Finder at all. I did find a wall containing eight rusted rock/dirt filled powder cans embedded in its outer side. The wall is circular in shape and faces downhill (east). Inside this wall is a shallow pit. From one side of the circular wall to the other must be at least twenty feet. The outer section of the circular wall containing some powder cans. Another view of some rusted powder cans Close nearby and slightly uphill of here is a smaller wall with at least two more powder cans. Vegetation prevents me from seeing if there are any more cans hidden from view. The configuration of the larger wall (with the eight powder cans) and the nearby small wall (with two or more powder cans) matches AA gun and machine gun positions shown on the map. That night I placed the GPS waypoint for the eight powder cans on the map. The larger wall was the embankment for AA gun position #1. The small wall was a machine gun position to the left. In the above description of the construction for the gun emplacements, it does not mention them using powder cans. However the map shows the walls of all six structures (gun emplacements, Director and Height Finder) looking the same. Minor point I think as the large wall is too far from the other structures to be anything but gun position #1. The straight line distance from Battery Ramsay gun #2 to Battery Hartford gun #1 is 41 metres (134 ft). After making a couple more passes around the area, nothing else was obvious. I wonder if that post war bulldozer that flattened much of Battery Boston did some work around here too. I’ll never know.
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Post by okla on Jun 7, 2010 23:41:30 GMT 8
Hey Fots....An excellent little "fix" to start my day. Appreciate it, as per usual. I have long wondered just how much havoc these AA Batteries actually wreaked upon Japanese aircraft. I have read varying accounts. One such claim stated that in one of the early raids, in either December 1941 or January 1942, that 5 enemy planes were shot down. I recall reading another account, years ago, that said probably as few as 5 or 6 were destroyed during the whole campaign (Dec 41 till May 42). I find both claims kinda tough to accept. Somewhere in between surely would be correct. Battery Boy said, a few weeks in the past, that he would attempt to answer this little question in his research of existing records of which he has access. Japanese records, if they still exist, would be much more reliable since they knew exactly how many of their pilots and planes didn't return from raids on the "rock", whereas US gunners were probably making "duplicate",etc claims. This always happens in the heat of combat. It would be interesting to know just how accurate our gunners were against the raiders seeing as how the Japanese often were flying above the effective range of our antiquated AA guns. I served with a Corregidor veteran of the 60 CA while in the USAF who told me that the defenders had plenty of AA ammo, but that the guns wouldn't reach the altitude that the Nips would bomb from in many instances. This guy went on to say that, although they knew their AA fire wasn't reaching the enemy aircraft, it kept them at an altitude that made accurate bombing difficult. The morale of the Corregidor gunners was also given a boost due to the fact that they were venting their frustration by at least making a lot of noise with their 3 inch guns. Certainly, knocking down low flying strafers with machine gun fire was a much likelier possibility, but methinks that such tactics by the enemy aviators would be a highly dangerous endeavor since Corregidor bristled with MGs.
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Post by fots2 on Jun 8, 2010 9:57:32 GMT 8
Hi okla,
It would be interesting to know how many enemy planes were shot down. Like you, I have read different numbers. Japanese records would probably be the best source of information. Keeping the bombers high enough to be relatively inaccurate was a good idea.
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Post by fots2 on Aug 1, 2010 19:54:22 GMT 8
Banzai PartyOn Corregidor Island a story seems to exist almost everywhere if you pause and take the time to understand what you are looking at. One example of this is some remote locations where you come across many groups of broken bottles. Before you think that my interest in garbage results from banging my head on a tunnel roof once too often, consider this. In 1945, US soldiers often reported that they could hear AND SMELL the approach of a Japanese attack. The alcohol smell was that strong coming from the approaching enemy. Before an attack the troopers could hear “banzais” in the distance. It was Phantom who told me that groups of Japanese would break the heads off of bottles and get drunk before an attack to get enough nerve to stand up and die for the emperor. Note that what you see today is not random garbage. Every, I repeat every bottle is broken off at the neck. The majority of bottles are beer and Saki but you also see Coke-Cola. One site has the bottles scattered a bit however most bottles are in numerous small groups still lying on the ground after all these years. Two major locations that I am aware of are on Topside on territory that remained in Japanese hands days after the February, 1945 parachute drop. I am sure I have seen other smaller groups of bottles elsewhere including Tailside. In none of these photos have I rearranged the bottles. I just cleared away branches and a few leaves to expose them for a better view. Although I don’t have much sympathy for the “enemy” I wonder what was going through the minds of Japanese soldiers who knew they would soon be dead. If these groups of bottles (and sometimes plates/bowls) ever existed near the day tour route then they are long gone, perhaps not being recognized for what they were. Before this little bit of history disappears completely, I though I would record what one of these areas looks like today. It was cloudy when I took these photos plus with the thick overhead trees I had to use my camera’s flash. I’ll try again someday when the ground is brighter. This site has broken plates and rice bowls. The US Army plate must have been brought here as it lies no where near a pre-war medical facility.
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Post by okla on Aug 1, 2010 23:30:14 GMT 8
Hey Fots...As usual, you have given my overactive imagination something to ponder this brutally hot Oklahoma Sunday afternoon. The conjecture on the saki bottles makes complete sense. But the "coke" bottles gives me pause. You would think the the Emperor's sons wouldn't have coca cola (captured in 1942, if there was any left to capture) at this late date (1945). Were these bottles empties gathered up after the 1942 capitulation and filled with "home brew" as we call it back here in the "badlands". Locals, in the past, here in my part of the woods, used discarded coca cola and other soda pop and beer bottles for their illegal home brewing activities. I just gotta think that the enemy utilized these coke bottles for the same purpose. Even if these soda bottles did contain coca cola, I can't imagine those fanatical Japanese troops plying themselves with pop prior to getting their arses blown to kingdom come by American small arms, MGs and mortars. This kind of stuff literally runs me nuts trying to conjure the true story behind present day remains and relics. I think I have told you that you may have created a monster. Wife thinks so. Thanks for the new stuff and keep it coming. My "habit" needs continual "feeding". Cheers. Postscript...In all honesty I would have found it most difficult to leave that US Army Medical Dept dish lying there in the bushes. It just might have made its way into my den. I said "just might", not wanting to incriminate myself, assuming that taking it home from Corregidor is a crime.
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Post by fots2 on Aug 2, 2010 17:24:13 GMT 8
When I think about it, I would say that the chances that there was old “coke” in those bottles is pretty slim. Perhaps after almost three years on the Rock with not much to do the Japs refined their home brew to produce something quite potent. Regarding the piece of dish, I never have been a collector. However, not wanting to incriminate myself, you just might end up with something new on your shelf someday.
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Post by fots2 on Aug 11, 2010 0:06:21 GMT 8
“Realizing they have no chance, various Japanese soldiers commit suicide with hand grenades. They pull the pins, slam the grenades to their helmets, and then hold them to their chests, resulting in them being blown apart inside a cave”. (text referring to events during the 1945 invasion of Iwo Jima) This story is basically what the hotel guides tell the overnight guests who are taking the Malinta Tunnel night laterals tour. They pass by an area in the 1000 bed hospital that has what appears to be floor, wall and ceiling blast damage. There is no damage before and after the area in question. I am far from an explosives expert but I rather doubt that a grenade would create such damage to the floor if held chest high…perhaps yes to the wall and ceiling. Do any board members know if a Japanese grenade (WWII era) was powerful enough to cause this? In my humble opinion the following photos do show damage from some kind of explosion. Note there is a narrow 1 ft by 3 ft depression in the floor (1 inch or so deep) and dozens of spots in the walls and ceiling where the concrete is flaked. It does look like what I expect concrete would look like if hit by multiple pieces of shrapnel. Last month I spent another three hours wandering inside Malinta Tunnel. In addition to the location mentioned above, I found two more similar blast locations in the hospital. Both of them are larger than the first one, the third one is much larger. Here, the floor depression is at least six feet across and shows corresponding large wall and ceiling damage. The tour does not go to these parts of the hospital. A couple other spots have upper wall and ceiling damage but nothing on the floor. Smaller blasts? As you approach the location of the blast you can see a damaged area to the floor, walls and ceiling. Closer view of the depression in the concrete floor. Looking straight up at the damage to the ceiling. Overall view of the walls and ceiling. The floor depression is just out of sight at the bottom. Here is the second blast location. Note how black the concrete is suggesting a big fire occurred here before the blast took place. View as you approach the third location, the largest by far. Recent white paint on the walls seems to also be covering up blackened concrete. Close-up view of the damage to the floor. Lots of blast damage to the walls is visible here. When taking this photo in the pitch black tunnel, I never noticed the circular area above the depression. Perhaps the blast was large enough to knock a hole through the concrete tunnel lining. The ceiling looks like it has been roughly repaired. I have not specifically looked for damaged areas such as these in other parts of Malinta Tunnel but they probably exist. Unlined laterals probably would not leave evidence in the rock such as we now see in the concrete lined laterals. The 1945 battle reports of troopers on Malinta Hill did report minor blasts occurring inside the tunnel complex in addition to the big blast. We will never know with 100% accuracy but what do you guys speculate was the reason for these isolated damaged areas? Did some of the emperor’s finest take a short-cut home? FYI “The standard Japanese grenades were the Type 91 and Type 97 grenades. The Type 91 had a 7.5-second fuse and adapters to allow it to be used either as a rifle grenade or as a projectile for the Type 89 "knee mortar." Both were filled with two ounces (57 grams) of TNT. The Type 97 had a 4.5 second fuse and was used only as a hand grenade. Both broke into very small fragments that were less lethal and had a much smaller kill radius than the corresponding Allied grenades. The fuse was rather unusual, being lit by banging the grenade on any solid surface to drive a firing pin into an igniter. The fuse was also unreliable if stored for any length of time, tending to go off too quickly”. (The Pacific War Online Encyclopedia) Japanese Type 97 hand grenade
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Post by okla on Aug 11, 2010 2:26:53 GMT 8
Hey Fots....My knowledge of the 1945 fighting to free the "rock" of its unwanted guests is, I regret to say, "slim and none". I have always been absorbed, addicted and immersed in the 1941-42 period. Therefore, I have never known whether our troops had to literally dig the Nipponese defenders from the Malinta complex lateral by lateral or just sit back whilst the Sons of Nippon gathered together for a "suicide" ritual. I am gonna guess that, for the most part, these obvious signs of explosions might be the latter option where groups of defenders met their "ancestors" in groups, rather than these areas being the sites of "last stands". I might be very mistaken, but I have never read/heard of heavy fighting in the Malinta tunnels. As I stated previously, my reading/studying of the 1945 fighting is woefully scant, so somebody/anybody with any pertinent knowledge of these events can please straighten me out. Fots, this is good stuff as per usual. Prowling around the Malinta tunnels has got to be flat out "spooky". I would think the Hospital areas would be doubly so. I really don't think my over active imagination could take a dose of touring those darkened passages. The invasion beaches, with the only sound being the surf and buzzing of bugs would be eerie enough, but pitch black tunnels and the echos,etc would have my skin crawling. JUST GIVE ME THE CHANCE. I would not hesitate to make the sacrifice. Until then your regular "fixes" will certainly suffice. Cheers.
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