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Post by Bob Hudson on Sept 5, 2012 21:43:41 GMT 8
I'll have a talk with the weatherman when I wake up in the morning and get those favorable winds for you Paul. I spent the entire day in Manila and met with Leslie Ann Murray, Art Matibag and Rob Sears. We have been negotiating for four months on my taking over the responsibility for the care and maintenance of the Bataan Death March Markers from KM 00 in Mariveles to KM 45 in Balanga and KM 00 in Bagac and KM 26 in Pilar. We finished negotiating and all signed a memorandum of understanding to that effect. When the rainy season ends, I'm going to have my hands full for a while.
Glad to see some follow up posts on the Parson report. I completely understand the reason for not disseminating the POW information. I just feel that they could have told my grandparents that their son was alive and a prisoner of war but they couldn't reveal their source without endangering other prisoners. My grandparents thought my father was dead for over two years. I'm sensitized to government insensitivity!
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Post by Karl Welteke on Sept 6, 2012 13:41:13 GMT 8
EXO, that is a great idea.
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Post by xray on Sept 6, 2012 14:03:45 GMT 8
I doubt in late 1943 that any serious challenge to "Europe first" would have been feasible or possible. The die was pretty well cast by then, so I'm doubting that that angle was given any serious consideration by anyone in a responsible position as a reason to mute the escapees. The resulting wave of anger and cries for revenge, should the gory details have been given a public outlet, could have put the government, and commanders in hot Pacific combat zones, in a difficult position ,, Which could have conceivably made things harder for the many 1,000's of remaining prisoners - Ironic, and extremely sad, that we ended up killing most of them ourselves via unrestricted sub attacks on merchant shipping.
Must have been pretty galling for the brave escapees, indeed, and their families ,,, But when the fate of nations hangs in the balance, consideration for individuals tends to fall by the wayside.
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Post by Bob Hudson on Sept 6, 2012 14:56:37 GMT 8
Has anyone ever considered why so many ships filled with POW's were hit, with the depth of our intelligence in and around Manila in the second half of 1944? There is no doubt in my mind that the contents of every ship of the Japanese that left Manila was known by the allies. I include, number of POW's, war materials on board, the time it set sail and direction it took when out to sea. Somewhere along the line, a decision was made to not share that information with the Navy. I believe someone high up had to make the decision that our POW's were collateral damage and Japanese shipping was to be sunk at any cost. Someone convince me that that decision was not made somewhere in the chain of command.
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Post by EXO on Sept 6, 2012 16:24:35 GMT 8
Your theory certainly does seem on the high side of plausible.
Conservative estimates suggest that, in all, 50,000 Allied POWs boarded hellships during the war. Gregory Michno, author of Death on the Hellships says that 21,000 didn't survive—more deaths than were sustained in combat by the U.S. Marines during the entire Pacific campaign.
What seems clear is that of the few people who knew, no one has talked.
The answer for this is probably in a file marked "never to be opened".
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Post by Bob Hudson on Sept 6, 2012 19:12:57 GMT 8
The Port area of Manila was crawling with Filipino's some of whom were there to report to the Allied forces, the movement of men and material in and out of the port. There is no doubt in my mind that the Navy played no part in the deliberate attack on ships known to be carrying allied POW's. I would say the decision was made at the highest levels of Army command or may have been decided higher up. I cannot see how letting the few ships carrying POW's go through unharmed would have changed the time table and outcome of the war to any degree.
Although there may have been some fear that the Japanese would think we had broken the J25 code, they would have most likely guessed that it was the work of allied intelligence in and around the port area. No one has ever written about the possibility of this. Those that may have tried lie next to Jimmy Hoffa.
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Post by okla on Sept 6, 2012 22:09:43 GMT 8
Hey Guys....Too bad the USN had corrected the flaws in its' Torpedoes by the time that most of the "Hell Ships" were being sunk. Of course, this would have had no bearing on those vessels that fell prey to bombs, but, if memory serves, most of these POW ships were taken out by Submarines with their "updated" tin fish. I was in college (on the GI Bill) with a guy whose father went down on one of those "Marus". His last name was Brittain (sp ). My classmate never received any details. Just that his Dad was taken prisoner on Bataan. I have always assumed that the POWs that were selected for shipment north to do slave labor were in good enough physical shape to make it worth the effort to be one of "the chosen". I have also always been under the impression that so many of these "Hell Ship" victims were Corregigor survivors for that simple reason. The were in much better shape upon capture than the Bataan troops. I, of course, stand to be corrected on this assumption. I am in error much of the time. Cheers.
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Post by Bob Hudson on Sept 7, 2012 6:26:00 GMT 8
Okla, that would be Robert N Brittain, Lt. Col, SN 294580. Went down on the Arisan Maru, 10/11/1944. To qualify to be transported for slave labor, you only had to test negative for dysentery. No was was in good enough shape for slave labor. The Corregidor pow's may have been in better shape initially but in mid to late 1944 when a stream of Hellships were steaming for Japan and Manchuria, Bataan and Corregidor pow's were all in the same shape. One can say that there were more Corregidor pow's on Hellships than Bataan men because at that point in time 60% of the Bataan pow's were dead. Corregidor pow's made up the majority of pow's killed on Hellships.
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Post by okla on Sept 7, 2012 6:46:22 GMT 8
Hey Bob....Thanks so much for filling me in on Colonel Brittain. His son and I were not close friends, but had a couple of classes together. The main reason we shot the breeze was the fact that he attended Junior College at Oklahoma Military Academy, in Claremore, Oklahoma, my hometown. This is the same institution where Lt Ed Ramsay (sp???), of 26th Cavalry fame, began his military career. I am now wondering if my friend's father, the Colonel, might have also attended this institution. As I initially said, I was acquainted with the Colonel's son, first at OMA, then knew him at Oklahoma State University. I just might try to run down this info next time I am in Claremore, although the school is now a Coed Regional College. Thanks again for turning up the info on the Colonel. Cheers.
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Post by xray on Sept 7, 2012 14:08:40 GMT 8
I think Bob that there can be little doubt that the higher chain of command knew of the carnage we were causing our own men and allies, men who have already suffered so much for so long. Proving it, to this very day, would be a worthwhile though very difficult pursuit, and it is very likely that no written orders were ever made concerning the matter. You obviously have a better grasp of their particulars than most of us here. Let me ask this, were most prisoner transports embarked from the same port ? Did most tend to take part in a convoy, or variously sail off on their own ?
During the Nuremberg trials, the American prosecution team actually indicted Ad. Doenitz for crimes on the high seas for practicing unrestricted submarine warfare. When the British got wind of it, they immediately and sensibly advised against it, for some pretty obvious reasons - We did the same, and worse, ourselves in the PTO. The charge was allowed to go through, and Doenitz predictably called as his first witness Ad. Nimitz. Though he of course was not compelled to testify in person, he and/or his staff were forced to admit in writing to many of Doenitz's points ,,,, After this, the charges were quietly dropped, and Doenitz was never held to account for anything that happened during his command of the UBoat fleet.
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