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Post by The Phantom on Mar 13, 2014 6:19:48 GMT 8
Well said Moderator, and supported with facts not opinions.
I suggest that all involved in this discussion read "BUNKER'S WAR" or if you can't find the book, at least the thread in this site about "BUNKER'S WAR" before blindly coming down on either side of this discussion.
This site is based on historical research not just opinions based on "feelings".
In the early years of this site when we still had Corregidor veteran's commenting on this site if you went with a errant "opinion" you got a shot over the bow.
Let's all research comments for the good of posterity, and the students referring to this site for the FACTS.
Your move.........
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Post by xray on Mar 13, 2014 10:55:19 GMT 8
"Well said Moderator, and supported with facts not opinions."
Really ?
And saying "The whole SS Corregidor episode was swept under the carpet, and I think that Bunker was the man with the broom." is a FACT and not opinion ? If there is any actual evidence to support that conclusion besides a strong gut feeling and pre conceived bias, I'm all ears, where is it at ? You really think he sweet talked Mac into a whitewash ? Again, if this is a FACT, I'd like to see what I've been missing here.
You guys want to refer to me obliquely as if its below your dignity to directly address me, go ahead, I'm not playing any games here - And if opinions are not allowed then hell, I don't know what to say about that - Had better stop all this SWAG stuff then. And if a "shot across the bow" is a threat to ban me, not a whole lot I can do about that - I don't respond to intimidation tactics in real life, and I don't here. Would be a shame to happen, not exactly a forum overflowing with members, I am a long standing contributor with a passion for Philippines struggle 1941-1945, but I will not be cowed into silence, so if you are going to ban me for not falling in line with the opinions of the upper echelons of this forum, then go right ahead. I will remove any bookmarks I have of this site and never return, don't worry about an IP ban, I won't be back.
I think the captain is to blame, thats my opinion. Others think Bunker is to blame, thats their opinions. The FACTS behind my opinion are so obvious that I'm surprised they had to be explained, nonetheless I will do so AGAIN.
* That a captain is responsible for the safety of his ship, crew, cargo and passengers when underway at all times is not some abstract notion, it is as old as seafaring itself FACT * He left his scheduled departure time early without notice, and was attempting to run a mighty fortress under siege in waters known to be infested with mines designed to sink intruding ships at night without communication, clearance or escort, apparently in the hope that he could sneak by without incident FACT * He lost his gambit, struck a mine, the ship sank quickly with great loss of life, also a FACT
Registrar never answered when I asked him "why should this have been reported as a war crime" when he said that it should have. Answer - And excuse me if this borders on opinion ,,, No crime was committed to report. The captain of the ship was flagrantly out of line in his reckless actions which culminated in the loss of his ship, and obviously he couldn't answer for them.
Thats all I have to say and, I suspect, all I ever will say here again.
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Post by Registrar on Mar 13, 2014 11:48:58 GMT 8
Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one. Considered opinions are somewhat another thing. Here are a number of opinions of others, expressed in private correspondence during the last few days. - "Bunker may have been the bravest soldier since Sergeant York or Audie Murphy as far as performance on the battlefield goes, but in other areas, he comes up lacking to a very large degree."
- "I just wanted to say you made some great posts on that subject the past couple days."
- "Since the thread is going nowhere, I have nothing of value to add. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but to let them go unchallenged might give them and others the idea that everyone agrees with them."
- "I too have noticed that some posts tend to come way out of left field sometimes. This particular topic in WWII history, due to the level of its tragedy, sometimes invokes emotional responses rather than factual ones. These kind of opinions corrupt the truth and ultimately the historical record."
- "Our past, older membership, (some of the Veteran's who had actually fought the battles), would shoot down inaccurate information with a salvo over your decks!"
- "I welcome new contributors as much as anyone, but when they try to post on all threads with little real input, I stop checking their posts."
- "You folks have been doing a good job."
- "Keep up the good work guys."
- "I love this Forum and the manner in which you administer it."
Your answer, as you seem to be in need that it be spelled out, "A U.S. commanding officer declining to investigate and to report to higher authority of his own actions which actions directly resulted in the deaths of US citizens, foreign citizens, and the loss of US war materials is a matter which is properly the subject of a criminal investigation." The captain of the SS Corregidor died for his sin, but that does not mean he absolved Col. Bunker of his. The case should not have been closed, the junior officers should not have been ordered to say nothing further of it. Who died and appointed you Judge Advocate General? I have other more important things to do. I have an appointment for a haircut.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2014 16:34:05 GMT 8
Not being a total noob when it comes to online forums, BUT has this thread now drifted waaaay too far off topic (responsible relic hunting, versus the prosecution of the Paul Bunker)? Or is it just me?....
*PS* we all know who the previously-targetted new people refer to, and it shoulda probably read new person (singular)....
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Post by Bob Hudson on Mar 14, 2014 17:16:38 GMT 8
I was going to add something about responsible relic hunting since I just turned over everything I have to the new museum in Balanga but I think, at this point in time, no one will understand why I am speaking on topic.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2014 17:29:11 GMT 8
Bob: well, I would imagine (and perhaps this is only me)...go ahead and post it...neither Mods nor Admins have either redirected nor closed this thread, so the topic should still remain in line with the title....
What relics did you have (if nothing else, I am interested)....
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Post by Registrar on Mar 14, 2014 19:38:22 GMT 8
I was going to add something about responsible relic hunting since I just turned over everything I have to the new museum in Balanga but I think, at this point in time, no one will understand why I am speaking on topic. GO AHEAD, BOB, by all means PLEASE bring us back on track as the detour on Paul Bunker does not deserve any further notoriety, particularly not its own thread. That is one reason why I have not moved it. Time will bury that false trail again. People who aren't moddies don't realize how many people out there are clueless time-wasters, snipers, trolls, etc. Donating the items to the museum at BALANGA is a brilliantly noteworthy solution to any allegations of improper relic hunting. I hope that the museum adopts a practice of issuing a "Certificate of Appreciation" to its donors, so that your paperwork protects you. That's the least they can do. (If they haven't, do one up for yourself, and have 'em sign it, they probably haven't thought of it yet.)
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Post by Registrar on Mar 14, 2014 19:48:04 GMT 8
Not being a total noob when it comes to online forums, BUT has this thread now drifted waaaay too far off topic (responsible relic hunting, versus the prosecution of the Paul Bunker)? Or is it just me?.... *PS* we all know who the previously-targetted new people refer to, and it shoulda probably read new person (singular).... ------------------------------------------------------- I prefer not to single out any individual, which is why I use plural and not singular. A reference is a reference to all. Regrettably, I have run out of stock of our "INNOCENT BYSTANDER" t-shirts. Here's your virtual one.
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Post by Bob Hudson on Mar 23, 2014 9:03:59 GMT 8
I had a hodge podge mixture of items to donate to the new Museum in Balanga. Most of it being live ammo from areas around Bataan. The largest of which is a 1925 B.A.R. which actually sits in a small museum in the Balanga Tourism center. The new museum received various calibers of live as well as spent shells. Metal buckles from various types of military equipment, nine brass buttons from a Marine dress uniform, a compass with "Eng. Dept. USA 1918" inscribed on it, a bolt from a 1903 Springfield, a fully loaded magazine for the B.A.R., buttons from a standard Blue Denim uniform that Filipinos wore,the remain of a butterfly knife, a dog tag with the name Joseph Phaneuf, serial # 11020526 on it, a piece of shrapnel, also a 8" long piece of 8mm film. Other things too many to mention.
I just purchased a new Garrett 350 metal detector and a friend who is coming to visit me here on Bataan for a month, will bring it in his suitcase so I can avoid a hefty shipping charge as well as a $54 VAT. No doubt when I get that new detector up and running, there will be new items to donate. I thought of taking the detector to Corregidor but I assume it would be useless as Corregidor now stands on a bed of shrapnel. One only needs a good magnet on the end of a stick there.
I'm not a big believer in personal collections. If you have something, donate it to a museum so people can view and appreciate it. I hung onto my items for a while in a box under my bed. What good were they doing there? When I had visitors, I would go under my bed and blow the dust off the box, take my items out, beat my chest and say, "Look at what I found"! It then occurred to me that if something were to happen to me, that box of rusty relics would end up in the local dump.
I'm lucky here because the new empty Museum in Balanga was looking for display items. Most of the older established museums have so much to display that much of it sits in a box in a basement which eventually gets covered with dust and forgotten. There are two new museums here. The one in Balanga and a new one at the train station in San Fernando where at the end of the Death March, POW's boarded boxcars to Capas. both of these new museums are virtually empty and are dying for donations to display. I turned over a 48 star American Flag to the museum in San Fernando that was sent to me by a Veterans group on the East Coast of the U.S.
I hope that some of you who have items will consider donating them. All items are usually displayed with a card crediting the person who donated it.
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Post by xray on Apr 19, 2014 15:50:49 GMT 8
350 is a very good machine, I have been using a 250 for almost 10 years. Basically the same machine, 350 a little upgraded. Very low learning curve, some advanced features for its price. Easy to pinpoint, decent depth, and you can actually go 2 ft or so into water if inclined, so long as you don't dunk the housing. I have other more capable [and expensive] machines, but I use my trusty 250 more than any of them. You will want to get yourself a pinpointer, is a great help in finding smaller items once they have been generally located, this is one of the more popular ones www.amazon.com/Garrett-Metal-Detectors-Pin-Pointer/dp/B001GQRUGONot cheap, but well worth the price. I was under the impression that detecting is banned on Corregidor.
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