|
Post by pdh54 on Apr 8, 2014 6:21:27 GMT 8
I know this deals with Europe and not the Pacific Theater, but I think it is important and needs to be brought to people's attention. These cases of missing soldiers CAN be resolved. It is unfortunate that our government is so incapable and incompetent of being able to do this. It takes 'regular' people to pursue these cases and find answers. These men answered the call of their country to defend it. They lost their lives doing so. It is unconscionable that the United States Government is allowed to sweep them under the rug so unceremoniously. Every soldier deserves to be remembered for who he was and what he gave. Technology has advanced so incredibly far since the 1950's that our government should be able to resolve most of these unknown remains! They just need to get off their butts and decide it is important. Here is a link to a story just published on CBS News website. www.cbsnews.com/news/american-world-war-ii-soldier-lawrence-gordons-remains-confirmed-through-dna-testing/I am sorry for the rant....... Patty I agree with Patty that this discussion deals with matters which appear beyond the immediate nexus of Corregidor, but I support Patty's post. Registrar
|
|
|
Post by JohnEakin on Apr 8, 2014 10:07:44 GMT 8
Thanks, Patty, and Registrar for posting and allowing a seemingly off-topic post.
However, a lot of us who have been working on this issue expect that the positive identification of PFC Gordon brings us a step closer to identification of all WWII Unknowns - of which, the Manila American Cemetery has the largest share with 3,744.
What was really significant about this identification was that it was confirmed through the use of nuclear DNA - something JPAC has been claiming couldn't be done. This shows what can be done when the U.S. Government gets out of the way.
BTW, I had a call just a few minutes ago saying that DPMO is going to officially accept this identification.
John, the arc of the Forum is tending towards expansion, and rather than just to consider this topic an 'echo of WWII', we've recently opened a board which will deal with all aspects of POW's and MIA's - as well as "Unknowns." Thus, I've moved the thread. I hope that the new topic board takes off, and can grow to become a relevant part of the History of WWII in the Philippines community. - Registrar
|
|
|
Post by okla on May 14, 2014 8:06:47 GMT 8
Hey Patty/John....I posted this comment some time back, but have not been able to retrieve it, thus, I will post the same information again, at the risk of being redundant so soon. I have a close friend whose older brother was a crew member of a B-24, making regular daylight runs to the "Fatherland" during 1944. His Liberator Bomber took a German 88 AA burst in their open bomb-bay just prior to making their final bomb run. Their Aircraft, according to eyewitness accounts in sister B-24s in the formation, was blown all over Northern Germany. After the War, sometime in 1946 or 1947 this family received what was supposed to be the body or remains of this Airman. The casket was buried in the local Cemetery in their small Oklahoma city. To this day they have grave doubts that their Son or any of his body parts are in this grave. I can, certainly, see why some doubt exists, if the eyewitness of the event are creditable. It does make one wonder/question just how many graves, scattered all over the World in Military Cemeteries do have mis-identified bodies or parts thereof, interred. It is just my opinion, but I do believe that I would rather just have my loved one be listed MIA rather than have serious misgivings about who occupied the grave site that has a marker displaying the name of my relative. Maybe if I were in their position, I would view it differently.
|
|
|
Post by dmether on Jun 8, 2014 14:25:51 GMT 8
Okla, you are correct. Was looking over the story of "Lost in Shangri-La" about the C-47 that went down in Dutch New Guinea. All of those who were killed were buried in a common grave back in the States. However, read through some historical AGRS documents, the remains were buried at the crash location and never recovered.
|
|
|
Post by JohnEakin on Jun 9, 2014 4:48:47 GMT 8
Okla - don't feel bad about not being able to find your original post, I missed this one until, now. <G> We're old and slow, but we get the job done eventually.
What you say about families rejecting the identifications is very, very true. I can't count the number of MIA families I have spoken with who didn't think the remains of their family member had been returned to them. I remember one guy who said his Mother didn't go to his Brother's funeral, never visited the cemetery and went to her grave insisting it was not her son's remains in the casket. Perhaps she just didn't want to face reality, or perhaps mothers really do know.
I don't spend any time reviewing old identifications - that would be a distraction to actually identifying Unknowns and just another excuse for JPAC not to identify them. However, I have come across a number of government documents which acknowledge bad ID's. Cabanatuan was especially bad about producing wrong remains - good ID's, wrong remains. The burial roster at O'Donnell listed the position in the grave so there were very few Unknowns from there, mostly just those who had not been identified at burial. They tried the same thing at Cabanatuan thinking that the remains had been placed in the communal graves in the sequence of the burial roster. So when they were re-buried at Manila #2 they had an X number and (the incorrect) name in the cemetery records. After a few months, they figured out that those ID's were bad and they remade the paperwork without the names - except at Manila #2.
So when they would receive antemortum dental records from the States, one of two dentists would compare the records against the tooth charts from all the remains from that grave and usually make an identification. However, when some grunt in the cemetery got the word, instead of digging up a specific grave he would dig up the grave the cemetery records said belong to Jones. You can imagine how this problem would snowball.
At some point, this caught up to them when they went looking for Jones and he wasn't there. That's a real aw shucks moment when you find an empty grave and that is why nearly one-third of the men who died at Cabanatuan ended up in the Manila American Cemetery as Unknowns and why the U.S. Government refuses to re-open those cases.
The problem is not insurmountable, but the longer they put it off the more difficult it will become because of the difficulty in obtaining DNA reference samples.
|
|
|
Post by JohnEakin on Jun 9, 2014 5:08:31 GMT 8
John, the arc of the Forum is tending towards expansion, and rather than just to consider this topic an 'echo of WWII', we've recently opened a board which will deal with all aspects of POW's and MIA's - as well as "Unknowns." Thus, I've moved the thread. I hope that the new topic board takes off, and can grow to become a relevant part of the History of WWII in the Philippines community. - Registrar Thanks, Registrar, for providing an area for the POW's and MIA's - a group which has been sadly overlooked for to long. The POW's who made it back just wanted to forget the whole horrible chapter in their lives and that was certainly OK with the military. The US Government was successful in keeping them hidden for so many years, but that genie is out of the bottle and they can never put it back. There has been more movement toward identification of Unknowns in the last twelve months than in the nearly 70 years prior. There have been some major media stories recently and the press is working on some even bigger stories to coincide with some events expected in the next few months. The recent Veterans Administration scandal followed by trading a deserter for five Taliban generals - and all this coming over the Memorial Day and D-Day observances - have really showcased how poorly America, especially this administration, has treated her veterans - and the show is far from over.
|
|
|
Post by okla on Jun 9, 2014 6:06:41 GMT 8
Hey demether...Your post reminded me of a woman I used to know, just after WW 2, who had lost a son during that conflict. Her Son, a crew member (Flight Engineer???) in a USAAC Transport (probably a C-46 or C-47 ) went missing, along with with the Pilot, Co-Pilot and Radio Operator, in New Guinea in 1943 or 44. No wreckage was ever spotted that could be connected to this particular aircraft, which would not be unusual in regions ala New Guinea. A few years after the War she was told by a "fortune teller", who did not know the woman or anything about her or her family circumstances, that she could see "a close, blood relative, living with a "black woman" in the wilderness". Of course, this woman, in her still present grief, felt that it was her son, taken in by natives in remote back country of New Guinea, never being able to make it back to civilization. She believed this to be true until her dying day. I don't believe in "fortune tellers" etc, but I also don't have a son that is MIA. During my hitch in the USAF (1951-55) I heard some "old timers", who served in the SW Pacific, say that all Air Crew were told, if their aircraft was disabled, to make every attempt to nurse their plane to open water to ditch or bailout. Going down or bailing our over the jungle was almost certain death, coming on impact in the dense jungle or dying slowly, hanging from a tall tree in your harness or lying, injured in the undergrowth etc. Makes sense to me. Cheers. P.S. I always enjoy your posts. Keep 'em coming.
|
|
|
Post by okla on Jun 9, 2014 6:13:54 GMT 8
Hey John....The more I learn about these "mismarked", etc graves, the more concerned I become. The family that I am acquainted with who have serious doubts about the contents of the grave marked with their Son's name could, very well, be a common occurrence, rather than the exception, as I used to take for granted. Keep doing your digging on this unsettling, but evidently not uncommon situation. Cheers.
|
|
|
Post by dmether on Jun 12, 2014 19:20:03 GMT 8
How Unknowns from the war were identified, or in some cases are still being identified, at times makes no sense. A couple of examples: Richard Stier crashed has P-38 into a swamp on the coast of Mindoro in July 45. The following day some natives found a torso floating 3 miles off shore. The squadron's flight surgeon determined that it belonged to Lt. Stier. To this day the family doesn't believe that he was ever recovered.
MACR 12205, B-25 43-28134, disappeared on 9 Jan 1945. It flew into the highest mountain on the island of Sibuyan. It was located in the 90's and a team from CILHI went to the island (1992) and signed a receipt for items including "assorted bones" brought down from the wreck. The case is considered closed although it's never been visited by JPAC and most of the remains are probably still on the site.
Even up to fairly recently the government can resolve a case without visiting a site or doing DNA testing. Example, John D. Cozza was a US Navy F-6 pilot who did not return from an attack on Luzon on 7 Jan 1945. His aircraft was located in the Sierra Madre Mountains in Northeast Luzon in 1989. Bone fragments found in a shoe, along with a data plate were turned over to the US and he was officially changed from MIA to Recovered.
|
|
|
Post by dmether on Jun 12, 2014 19:30:21 GMT 8
One more example: This is MACR 14323, a C-47 that crashed on Leyte on 12 March 45 with 6 on-board. The wreck was found by locals in 1989 and the bones in the picture were turned over to the US Embassy. JPAC has never been to the site, however the crew is listed as being recovered and identified.
|
|