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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2015 0:31:23 GMT 8
Karl, Beirutvet, Greetings from Montana. As soon as I figure how to post pictures I will get you some of the Fort William Henry Harrison flagpole(the one in Montana and not to be confused with the Fort Ben Harrison in Indy, IN). I was honestly hoping it would turn out that the Spanish Flag pole on Corregidor would truly have come from a Spanish warship from the Spanish (SA)War as it would make for a much more interesting story for the flagpole here. Montana sent troops the PI during SA War and I was hoping they had smuggled home a little reminder of their time abroad. We all know we have to go where the evidence takes us and based on the invoice for the Ft Mills flag pole I would agree the these unique flag poles are probably just what the War Department just happened to be using at the time. They are really quite unique in their construction and look like something more appropriate for the Navy than the Army. I am taking a little road trip that will take me to FE Warren AFB in Wyoming. I plan to scope out their flag pole as Warren AFB is an old cavalry post. While FT Robinson is a little off the path for my road trip I plan to give Ft McPherson, NE (now only a cemetery) flag pole a look.
The journey researching this flag pole has now resulted in the finding of two historical mistakes. The most obvious is the fact Corregidor's flag pole most likely never did time on a Spanish vessel. The other one is the finding of pictures at the Montana Historical Society (MHS) annotated as being of FT Harrison MT when they really were pictures of FT Harrison IN. MHS has sent the pictures on to FT Harrison IN or the IN Historical Society.
Well next I have to learn how to post pictures. Here is a direct email you may use if you want to contact me directly. FODSTUFF at HotMail Karl, I must really congratulate on finding that invoice and Beirutvet for the pictures of existing flag pole at FT Robinson, NE. Thank you both for your efforts and for sharing your research. john
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Post by beirutvet on Aug 28, 2015 4:15:03 GMT 8
John
Thanks for the props, but they are undeserved. Karl is the one who found the picture from Fort Robinson, not me. He has forgotten more about research than I currently know. He is one of 3 or 4 go-to guys for research here.
I am more than ever in Karl's camp and almost sure that the flag pole is not from a Spanish warship,,,,,,,, but not 100%. the perfectionist in me still has a 2% doubt factor here. I still can't past the fact that the pole very much looks Navy in design. It just doesn't look Army to me, more Navy than anything.
Is it at least possible that the flag pole was DESIGNED to be like a flag staff from the Reina Cristina? That would explain it being said coming from the Spanish Flagship.
I'm sorry, every time I see a picture of the pole it just screams not just NAVY to me, but 19th century sailing ship Navy. Which begs the question, why would the Army have so proliferated a distinctly Navy design for something so central as the main flag pole on so many Army bases? That just does not make sense to me. Unless of course the design was an intentional nod to the Spanish American war trophies.
As Karl showed in one of his posts, the Army Of The Pacific has a long history, perhaps this influence reached all the way back to design and planning. Of course this is all (swag alert) pure conjecture.
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Post by Karl Welteke on Aug 28, 2015 15:47:06 GMT 8
Hello John Good to hear from you again. Per EXO instructions I sent you my email. If you would, sent those pictures and I will post them ASAP. You cannot post on the forum directly (no space available for that) you have to link them stored on a picture account, yours or someone else’s.
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Post by oozlefinch on Aug 29, 2015 11:43:08 GMT 8
Here's a SWAG. Would it be easier to find two (2) 45-50ft spars that, when put together, would create a 86ft pole, than a single 90 plus ft. pole? This could well be the reason why naval ships have the stepped masts, and why the Army copied the design. Also, in battle, if a mast was damaged, it would be easier to replace part of the mast, rather than the whole thing, not to mention the storage factor of a 90ft mast, as opposed to two (2) 50ft pieces. I don't know for sure, this is just a SWAG.
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Post by oozlefinch on Aug 30, 2015 4:46:15 GMT 8
I realize the flagpole was constructed of steel, but I think the same principles apply. I don't know whether the Spanish ships had steel or wooden masts, or the U.S. ships of the era, for that matter. I note that there are guy wires stablizing the pole that are attached at the platform/point of joinder spot. It could also be that it was just felt that with the size of the flag, and the possibility of high winds, that this was a stronger type of flag staff.
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Post by armyjunk on Aug 30, 2015 7:24:34 GMT 8
I believe that the top section of the flagpole is 10 individual pieces of pipe and the lower section is 12 individual pieces, this being many times stronger than a single pipe. Most likely the reason for this type of construction, a large flag on a 86 foot pole would need lots of strength.
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Post by Karl Welteke on Aug 30, 2015 14:10:19 GMT 8
FORT LOGAN FLAGSTAFF SPECIAL TRIP BY THE CDSG. Yesterday my Coastal Defense Study Group (CDSG) friend sent me an unsuspected surprise. He got some pictures and information about the Ft. Logan Flagstaff. He knows that we believe that the Fort Mills flagstaff on Corregidor Island can’t be from a Spanish warship, sunk by Commodore Dewey, as it claimed by many historical entities. Roger Davis, aka armyjunk, sent 7 images and I put them into this album with a high resolution and you should be able to zoom in. They are the “E” series of images in this album: s74.photobucket.com/user/PI-Sailor/library/Corregidor%20by%20subject/Historical%20Corregidor/Old%20Flagstaff?sort=9&page=1We had this conservation per email about these pictures: Roger: Karl I shot these yesterday for you.......Fort Logan Karl: Since the base is closed where are the flagstaff, cemetery and hospital? Who maintains the flagstaff or who does it belong to. What is that other flag with the US flag? Roger: The state of Colorado has a mental health hospital there and I assume the state maintains the grounds and flagpole, the lower flag is the state flag of Colorado. One pic, Google Earth location Z518, is CO residence. Another view is across the Parade Ground to the flagpole from the Commanding Officers residence............ Karl: Man, that is real outstanding that you went out of you way and got those pictures and they are very clear!!! Thank you very much again. Karl Flags represent our country and us people that is why I like to post these pictures; they also teach us history! These same 7 pictures are posted here but are much smaller than in the album: W30 (E1) the old Fort Logan flagstaff, Colorado, in this Aug. 2015 picture by Roger Davis, member of the CDSG. Below the US Flag is the State of Colorado Flag. W31 (E2) Ft Logan was closed in 1946 and it is used by the Colorado State as mental health center. We assume the flagstaff is behind maintained by that organization. I am glad to see that the parade ground is being maintained. Look at the left bottom corner at the mark “Z518”, Roger took one shot from there. Part of the fort became Fort Logan National Cemetery. W32 (E3) a shot across, what I assume is the former Fort Logan parade grounds; the flagstaff is visible on the other side. This shot was from the spot “Z518” in the previous image. W33 (E4) Roger shot a sign or plaque and look at the number 12 entry, it says that the 110 foot flagstaff is the original one and is similar like others that were installed at other military installations of the period. W34 (E5) this shot of the Ft. Logan flagpole is almost exactly like the flagpole at Fort Mills on Corregidor Island. The next entry I will present a close up shot. And next month I will go to Corregidor again and will try to get a similar shot there. W35 (E6) the bottom of the Ft. Logan flagpole is anchored a little different than the one on Corregidor; again I will look at that next month. W36 (E7) that is the trouble with these high flagpoles, the flags are sometime hard to keep fying properly. That is the Colorado Flag below the US one. Why this construction; I assume, that in the first half of the last century this was the easiest way to build and maintain such a high flagpole.
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Post by Karl Welteke on Aug 30, 2015 15:32:14 GMT 8
TWO CLOSE-UP SHOTS OF THE FORT LOGAN FLAGPOLE. Roger Davis, from the CDSG) sent me some very clear images of the Ft. Logan flagstaff. I post here two detailed pictures of the flagstaff so we can compare them with the Ft. Mills flagstaff on Corregidor Island. I will visit Corregidor next month and will try to get two similar shots to compare the two flagstaffs. W37 the Ft. Logan flagstaff, a close-up of the pole, where the two sections are joined together to attain a height of 110 feet. Especially this part seems to be constructed the same way as the flagstaff at Fort Mills on Corregidor. It is believed that the Corregidor flagstaff came of a Spanish war ship, sunk by Commodore Dewey, a sign at the bottom of the flagpole says so. But the Corregidor flagpole does not look like the mast on the Spanish ships, it rather look like the Army fort flagstaffs in many other Army forts. W38 the upper pole of the Ft. Logan flagstaff zoomed in, that is the Colorado State Flag under the US Flag. I will compare this with the ex ft. Mills flagstaff next month when I visit there.
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Post by oozlefinch on Aug 31, 2015 7:26:50 GMT 8
The flagstaff at Ft. Logan is very interesting, although I don't recall the Topside flagstaff looking like it. Army Jung suggests that the Topside flagstaff is constructed of numerous pieces and threaded/bolted together. I haven't taken a good look at in many years. Can the points of connection be readily discerned?
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Post by Karl Welteke on Sept 6, 2015 17:40:28 GMT 8
FLAGSTAFF AT THE VA HOSPITAL IN THE FORT WILLIAM HENRY HARRISON John 1 is a guest in this forum and thanks to him, this thread is challenging the myth that the Ft. Mills Flagstaff on Corregidor Island came from a Spanish Ship. He sent us pictures to be posted on the forum and they have been uploaded to this album in the “F” series of images numbered F1 to F8. s74.photobucket.com/user/PI-Sailor/library/Corregidor%20by%20subject/Historical%20Corregidor/Old%20Flagstaff?sort=9&page=1John 1 also sent older historical images and they will be posted in the next reply. In this forum he has written this and it is repeated here: I work at the VA hospital at Ft William Henry Harrison in Helena Montana. The post flag pole is very unique and as such I have been trying to trace its history for a number of years. Recently I was reading a history of Corregidor and came across pictures of the Corregidor Island flag pole. It is identical to the one at FT Harrison. I have read that the Corregidor flag pole is the mast of a Spanish ship sunk in the Spanish American War. Can anyone provide more information as to the history of the Corregidor Island flag pole? FYI: The flag pole at Ft Harrison still has the ratline rigging (seen in pictures and video of the MacArthur flag raising ceremony from 2 March 1945) which is now missing from the Corregidor flag pole. He said and by sending the pictures he proves that the Ft. Harrison flagpole looks very much identical to the flagpole in Ft. Mills on Corregidor. And so far we have pictures of three other forts that have or had identical flagpoles like the one on Ft. Mills on Corregidor. The other three forts are Ft. Robinson, Nebraska; Ft. Shafter, Hawaii and Ft. Logan Colorado. There can be only one conclusion that that type of flagstaff was a standard design in the US Army, early last century, all in the new forts in the west!!!! The same 8 pictures are presented here but are much smaller than in the album above: W82 (F1) a picture of the VA hospital flagstaff at Ft William Henry Harrison in Helena Montana, and the picture was provided by John Johnson from Montana. W83 (F2) a picture of the VA hospital flagstaff at Ft William Henry Harrison in Helena Montana, and the picture was provided by John Johnson from Montana. W84 (F3) a close-up of the VA hospital flagstaff at Ft William Henry Harrison in Helena Montana, and the picture was provided by John Johnson from Montana. W85 (F4) a real close-up of the two flagstaff sections connected together. The VA hospital flagstaff picture at Ft William Henry Harrison in Helena Montana is provided by John Johnson from Montana. W86 (F5) an even better close-up of the two flagstaff sections connected together. The VA hospital flagstaff picture at Ft William Henry Harrison in Helena Montana is provided by John Johnson from Montana. W87 (F6) the lower section of the VA hospital flagstaff at Ft William Henry Harrison in Helena Montana, and the picture was provided by John Johnson from Montana. W88 (F7) it seems the lower mast of the VA hospital flagstaff at Ft William Henry Harrison is bolted together out of two sections, the picture is from John Johnson at Montana. W89 (F8) the upper mast of the VA hospital flagstaff at Ft William Henry Harrison seems to be a single pipe or tube and tapers down in size towards the top. The picture is from John Johnson at Montana.
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