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Post by fots2 on Jul 22, 2012 20:44:58 GMT 8
oozlefinch, In the Malinta Hill thread, Reply #172, the photos show what remains of the tunnel running north-south from the QM area to the South Entrance at San Jose Point. This is not Tunnel Queen. Below I added some photos of the SW Navy tunnel that many believe is “Queen”. Here is a look at the bend in the tunnel that is 8.6 meters from the entrance. Inside the 4.4 meter wide tunnel and looking in the direction of the entrance. The passageway narrows to 2.0 meters wide. The bend is straight ahead going to the right. Looking in the same direction, here is a closer view of the bend. This is an opposite direction view of the bend as you come from the entrance. I doubt 24 foot long, 21 inch wide torpedoes would get around that corner. There is no ramp outside today but that does not mean there never was one.
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Post by okla on Jul 23, 2012 0:07:38 GMT 8
Hey Fots....Methinks,there ain't any way a "fish" could negotiate that bend unless it's made of rubber. Chad....Since my last post concerning the Mark 14 Torpedo, I remembered something else that an old sea farin' man, such as yourself, might answer for me. In 1934, as I understand it, the Navy Department, in their wisdom, took Torpedoes off Cruisers, leaving this weaponry on Destroyers only. Do you know why this decision was made??? Our friends from up north got excellent results using Torpedoes mounted on their Crusiers, especially in the Solomon Island fights. I wonder if those who made the 1934 decision ever had recriminations or regrets when the results were coming in from places like Savo Islnd, Cape Esperance, Tassafaronga, and those other exotic locales???
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Post by oozlefinch on Jul 23, 2012 8:59:31 GMT 8
Fots - So, do you think that the tunnel that opens onto the South Shore Road at San Jose Point was original to the QM tunnel system, or was it part of the Navy Tunnel system? I wonder then where the Navy stored their torpedoes.
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Post by pdh54 on Jul 23, 2012 12:33:38 GMT 8
FYI, for those not familiar with Malinta Hill, here is an updated map from January 2009 (thanks to mapmaster’s diligent work). It depicts an accurate view of the Malinta Tunnel system. Using GPS information, the location of the two remaining Navy Tunnels can be seen in the lower left corner. ‘Queen’ is at the bottom and ‘Roger’ is a few metres north-west of it. Hi guys, May I add my two cents worth? In looking at the old posts, current posts and picking Chad's brain, this is what I'm coming up with. As one walks from the main tunnel area going in a southerly direction, you walk through the Quartermaster area. There are 11 lateral or off-shooting smaller tunnels from the main one. Continuing on you pass the area where they had planned to dig new laterals but never did. A short distance on you come upon a smaller lateral to the right or in a south-westerly direction. This leads to what originally was called the South entrance. When the Navy came on board the name(s) were changed and probably 2,3 or more smaller entrances were made there. Fots found two of these entrances and has posted photos. It is thought that these entrances could be to the Queen tunnel and maybe Roger Tunnel. One set of photos shows one of the tunnels having a 45 degree turn or bend about 28 ft or 8.6 m from the entrance, this is per Fots' eye witness account and pictures. These two tunnels are joined by a leg so that they form 3/4 of a rectangle. From the corner of this rectangle there is a tunnel that goes to join the tunnel you had been walking down through the Quartermasters tunnels. Now if we forget these and go back to the tunnel through the QM's area, this tunnel continues in an almost straight 180 line to what is called the San Jose Point entrance. I think it is also called the South entrance now too? or I may be mistaken. I think also this entrance is blocked today too? Chad seems to think this is the tunnel he explored all those years ago, but came upon a pile of rocks and couldn't go through to the outside. This is also the tunnel that he found the rail spike and spring in, but no embedded rail lines in the floor. I think Fots says the far end part of this tunnel is NOT concreted. Now, let's look at tunnel widths. The tunnel thought to be Queen is 14.3 ft or 4.4 m and narrows to 6.5 ft or 2 m at a 45 degree bend. In looking at the size of these Mark 14 torpedoes, they are 20 ft 6 in long and 21 inches in diameter. Visualize a box that is 2 ft by 2 ft and 20 ft long. I could see them storing 6-8 of these torpedoes in the tunnel entrance depending on how tall the wall is before the curvature of the ceiling starts, but would they really want to clutter up the entrance to this place with these large, HEAVY torpedoes? The other tunnel, the continuation of the tunnel through the QM's area seems more ideal for torpedo storage. In just looking at Fots' pictures they seem at least twice as wide. Do you know Fots off hand? I can see them stacking torpedoes 3-4 high down the length of the tunnel. Remember they would need to be able to move them fairly easily so some sort of machinery would need room to maneuver. They may have been able to do two rows on each side or three on one side. Since there are no rail lines down the middle, they may have had them to one side or used some sort of flat bed trailer moved by a tractor of some sort. They would need close to 6 ft of available floor space down the length of the tunnel This tunnel logically should be where they stored the torpedoes. I think someone said they thought that 150 of them were brought over from Cavite? If they stored them in lots of 9 (3 on the ground and x 3 high) on one side of the tunnel and giving them 25 feet for each lot, they would have needed 400 ft of tunnel length to store 144 torpedoes. Stacking them 4 high which would probably need close to an 8 ft high wall, they would need about 325 ft in tunnel length. Just a wild question.....Could the spike Chad found have been used to anchor some sort of holding apparatus to the walls for the torpedoes? No one has mentioned any markings like that nor do they show on the pictures. The spring maybe in some sort of lever to move them up and down? I guess probably not, but you never know til you ask. I guess this is my SWAG. Can't let the other half have all the fun. Patty
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Post by fots2 on Jul 23, 2012 16:24:12 GMT 8
Wow Patty, that is an excellent summary. I didn’t think that anyone could understand all the rambling I do in my posts. Some comments: I searched for specs on the Mark 14 torpedo and found that it was 24 feet long, not 20, so even less likely to fit around the bend in Queen. When you reach the 4.4m section, there are concrete pedestals on the floor for generators etc plus many metal hangers on both walls for wires, cables, pipes??? If it were possible to get torpedoes in here then it would be cluttered for sure. Where were all the Naval personnel who were working in their tunnel? The second tunnel a few meters away (perhaps Roger) does not have a large bend inside and I can imagine torpedoes lining the floor in there. There were three more Navy tunnels along this hillside so they may have been there too. These three are buried now. Now, the straight tunnel from the QM area south to San Jose Point is a definite possibility for storage. It would also have been cramped but perhaps that is just what they had to live with. It would have been a bit further to get the torpedoes around to the South Navy Dock but there is a road along the hillside. I do not have exact measurements for the portion from the QM laterals down to near the Navy tunnels intersection but I would estimate it is 2 meters wide and almost the same height. From the start of the collapse, I cannot determine the dimensions to the South entrance. Photo of the unlined tunnel from the QM laterals south to the start of the collapse. Start of the collapse however you can crawl up over the rock fall to walk the collapsed tunnel roof. One of my buddies is seen coming back down. The only concrete in the tunnel to the South entrance at San Jose Point is right at the entrance (as far as I can tell). None can be seen anywhere else all the way up to the north end of the QM laterals. I agree, this is the most likely location to store the torpedoes although some could have been put is other SW tunnels also. I hope this helps oozlefinch, I do not have a definite answer for you. On a serious note Patty, I must caution you. You are starting to sound like a true Corregidor addict. Welcome to the club! Refreshments will be served at McArthur’s Café after your next visit to Malinta Tunnel. ;D
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Post by pdh54 on Jul 23, 2012 21:13:36 GMT 8
Morning Fots,
I think I agree with the idea that they stored these torpedoes where they could. Planting some of them in the SW tunnels as well as the tunnel to San Jose Point makes sense, There really wasn't a lot of room for large storage, was there? They must have been almost climbing over stuff just to do their jobs.
One question......is the tunnel through the QM area cement lined in the actual storage area up near the main tunnel complex?
A nice cold one sounds great! I look forward to it!
Patty
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Post by okla on Jul 23, 2012 22:27:02 GMT 8
Hey All....This is good stuff. As for the storing of the "fish", I suppose the Navy, with enough personnel and gear, could have manhandled those things by brute force,etc. The USS Batfish, a WW 2, Fleet Submarine, is moored (actually it sits on elevated braces) at Muskogee, Oklahoma's World War 2 Memorial Park, hundreds of miles from her former berth at New Orleans), along with one of the Masts of the USS Oklahoma, which was only recently retrieved from the muck of Pearl Harbor during dredging operations. I have toured this vessel two times and on each occasion I am amazed at what close operating space is available in moving those Torpedoes to the firing tubes. Space was at a premium, but those guys got the job done. If that kind of effort was required in Subs, you gotta think that the guys assigned to this task in the tunnels of Corregidor would have managed very well. As I said some "brute force" certainly must have been required, but I betcha there was some "ingenious" method, probably devised by an old tattoo sporting Chief Petty Officer, implemented in horsing these things into and out of those storage areas. This is my SWAG for the day. I must get back to my attempt to find a few, living creatures, in that panoramic view of Corregidor's North Dock area and where I read that the Navy Dept removed Torpedo capability from Cruisers in 1934. This kinda stuff keeps the gray matter from dissolving, I am told. Cheers.
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Post by fots2 on Jul 23, 2012 23:26:52 GMT 8
Hi Patty, By July of 1940, eleven QM laterals had been blasted out of the rock. Of the eleven, only three were excavated to their full size, two more were partially excavated to their full size and the rest were just rough pilot tunnels. Even the north-south tunnel was full size only from the northern end down to the third lateral on the western side. None of these shafts are shown to have been lined at that time. If you go there today you will see that a very short northern section of the N-S tunnel got lined and the first NE lateral. No other concrete can be seen in the rest of the QM tunnels or in the tunnel heading south. Any lining that does exist is heavily damaged and there are signs of fire damage everywhere. The photo below is a view looking south. I am standing at the southern end of a domed lateral in the main Malinta Tunnel. Ahead is the angled start of the QM tunnel. Just past the end of the domed tunnel you can see a break in the concrete walls on both sides. This is where the narrow E-W ventilation tunnel passes from left to right. Further along, note that the bottom portion of the concrete lining still exists as you proceed into the QM tunnel.
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Post by fots2 on Jul 24, 2012 0:41:33 GMT 8
Okla, It seems some of the fish survived the ’42 and ’45 battles and ended up on Bottomside. These two photos were taken on and near the North Dock. Happy Birthday buddy!!!
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Post by okla on Jul 24, 2012 1:30:18 GMT 8
Hey Fots....Thanks for the Birthday wishes. It's numero 80, thus, I am feeling more and more like a fugitive from the law of averages, and certainly from Insurance Company statistics. My Doc says I have been on "gravy" since I was 75 or some such age. Every time I turn around, it seems that some old buddy from the Air Force, College, High School and family members have "folded their tent". Thanks again for the well wishes.
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