Post by Registrar on Dec 25, 2019 8:44:31 GMT 8
I get involved in some interesting e-mail exchanges, and for various reasons, they don't start here - which is a pity, because they sure do get interesting. This thread is my attempt to replicate a recent series of e-mails.
They started, for me at least on 17 December, when "Snake" (a.k.a. Neil Krumbeck) sent me a series of images and wrote as follows:
Cockpit Controls - Copyright Neil Krumbeck
Escape Hatch and Loop Antenna - Copyright Neil Krumbeck
[img src="http://corregidor.org/bbbin/snake/Martin%20250%20CE%20Upper%20Turret[99899].jpg" alt="Martin Turret "]
Martin 250 CE Upper Turret - Copyright Neil Krumbeck
[img src="http://corregidor.org/bbbin/snake/No%203%20Engine%20Nacelle[99900].jpg" alt=" "]
No 3 Engine Nacelle - Copyright Neil Krumbeck
Screenshot from 2019-08-17 13-27-35 - Copyright Neil Krumbeck
Screenshot from 2019-10-04 09-04-22 - Copyright Neil Krumbeck
From: Neil
To: Bob Livingstone, Peter Dunn and myself:
Hi Bob, Paul and Peter,
We've spent a week diving on the plane wreck and brought up a number of items such as instruments from the cockpit and other bits and pieces, and even a turbo charger which was lying on the bottom nearby knowing that it would be serial numbered. We found four serial No/data plates altogether but they were all made of aluminium and badly corroded so no joy there. The turbo being a large and heavy item was returned to the site. We also made a small airlift (vacuum) to excavate around the cockpit area but found nothing conclusive there either.
The only thing that does stand out on the wreck is that it has an escape hatch for the radio compartment below the DF Loop Antenna, but it's on the RHS. All drawings I've seen, and in the videos of Kermit's B-24J below in Part 1, show it on the LHS.
In the 380th Bomb Group drawings attached, it's showing the hatch on the RHS of the B-24M-CO (Consolidated, San Diego) but it's not fitted to the B-24M-FO (Ford, Willow Run) or the B-24L. I can't make out what it says about it though as the drawing isn't very clear, "Escape hatch on ? ? ? a/c". I thought it may refer to one of the service depots where tail armament and equipment schemes were installed, but none of the 22 depot names match up.
A72-191 was also a B-24M-10-CO and was modified with some extra electronic equipment for the special missions so this hatch may be the key to identifying the wreck. From the research I've done on other B-24's lost in the area, none stand out and at present the wreck is looking like it may be a B-24M.
I've been in touch with Paul Rourke, David Miller and Graeme Hore at Werribee and they've been helpful as they're restoring a B-24M-10-CO but it doesn't have this escape hatch.
We would appreciate any input that you Paul and Peter could give us to try and solve this mystery.
B-24 Tour Part 1
B-24 Tour Part 2
From: Paul Baker
To: Neil, Robert, Paul, Graeme, David,Paul, Peter, Tony, Mick, Joe
Snake,
Some info on the radar kit etc fitted to the three B-24s on the March 1945 mission from Mindoro. Also two diagrams I came across with the escape hatch in case you haven't seen them...
Still reading...
Paul
(Enlargements)
They started, for me at least on 17 December, when "Snake" (a.k.a. Neil Krumbeck) sent me a series of images and wrote as follows:
Cockpit Controls - Copyright Neil Krumbeck
Escape Hatch and Loop Antenna - Copyright Neil Krumbeck
[img src="http://corregidor.org/bbbin/snake/Martin%20250%20CE%20Upper%20Turret[99899].jpg" alt="Martin Turret "]
Martin 250 CE Upper Turret - Copyright Neil Krumbeck
[img src="http://corregidor.org/bbbin/snake/No%203%20Engine%20Nacelle[99900].jpg" alt=" "]
No 3 Engine Nacelle - Copyright Neil Krumbeck
Screenshot from 2019-08-17 13-27-35 - Copyright Neil Krumbeck
Screenshot from 2019-10-04 09-04-22 - Copyright Neil Krumbeck
From: Neil
To: Bob Livingstone, Peter Dunn and myself:
Hi Bob, Paul and Peter,
We've spent a week diving on the plane wreck and brought up a number of items such as instruments from the cockpit and other bits and pieces, and even a turbo charger which was lying on the bottom nearby knowing that it would be serial numbered. We found four serial No/data plates altogether but they were all made of aluminium and badly corroded so no joy there. The turbo being a large and heavy item was returned to the site. We also made a small airlift (vacuum) to excavate around the cockpit area but found nothing conclusive there either.
The only thing that does stand out on the wreck is that it has an escape hatch for the radio compartment below the DF Loop Antenna, but it's on the RHS. All drawings I've seen, and in the videos of Kermit's B-24J below in Part 1, show it on the LHS.
In the 380th Bomb Group drawings attached, it's showing the hatch on the RHS of the B-24M-CO (Consolidated, San Diego) but it's not fitted to the B-24M-FO (Ford, Willow Run) or the B-24L. I can't make out what it says about it though as the drawing isn't very clear, "Escape hatch on ? ? ? a/c". I thought it may refer to one of the service depots where tail armament and equipment schemes were installed, but none of the 22 depot names match up.
A72-191 was also a B-24M-10-CO and was modified with some extra electronic equipment for the special missions so this hatch may be the key to identifying the wreck. From the research I've done on other B-24's lost in the area, none stand out and at present the wreck is looking like it may be a B-24M.
I've been in touch with Paul Rourke, David Miller and Graeme Hore at Werribee and they've been helpful as they're restoring a B-24M-10-CO but it doesn't have this escape hatch.
We would appreciate any input that you Paul and Peter could give us to try and solve this mystery.
B-24 Tour Part 1
B-24 Tour Part 2
From: Robert Livingstone
To: Neil, Peter, Paul, Pete & Jude Johnston
Neil.
Pavel Turk has got back to me with the following:
According to the Parts Catalogs the escape exit on the RIGHT side of the Command Deck was installed on the production line on the following aircraft,:
CO: s / n 44-42049 (beginning of block M-15) to s / n 44-42722 (end of block M-45)
FO: s / n 44-49752 (beginning of block L-15) to s / n 44-51928 (end of block M-30) *
* aircraft from later blocks had a window in the exit door (eg B-24M-20-FO s / n 44-51228)
Note: By Ford, as in many other cases, the specific parts were installed on the production line some number of aircraft earlier/later than stated in Parts Catalog.
In October 1943, at a meeting at Langford Lodge, the problem of how to increase the chances of the crews to survive an emergency landing on the water was solved. One of the suggested modifications was the installation of another escape exit on the Command Deck. Prototype installation designed by Lockheed Overseas Corp. was completed at Langford Lodge on B-24H-1-CF 41-29179 in early February 1944. At STA 5.3, an emergency exit of 30in x 26in was installed. The same problem at that time also addressed Scottish Aviation Ltd., Prestwick. Their 24in x 20in escape exit, also located at STA 5.3, was found to be sufficient for the purpose and installation less time consuming. Technical Instruction CTI-1689 issued by the Headquarters of Materiel Command AAF on 19 April 1944 ordered the installation of all B-24 Command Deck escape exit of the same design as the Flight Deck. As follows from the report of the headquarters of BADA (Base Air Depot Area) sent on 18 8th 1944 Commanding General 8th AF, was revised adjustment B24112. The Command Deck escape exit installation has been moved from left side between STA 5.2 and 5.3 to right side between STA 5.3 and 5.4 to match the location of the new B-24 arriving from the US (eg B-24J-1-DT s / n 42-51229 delivered to the UK in June 1944). The telegram dated December 4, 1944 and signed by General J. H. Doolittle shows that the modification kits for installing the Command Deck escape exit were manufactured both in the US and the United Kingdom, and that there were enough on that date. Prior to commissioning, Command Deck emergency exits were installed in Modification Centers in the United States.
The Parts Catalog does not indicate that the Fort Worth aircraft had an escape exit installed on Command Deck, but RAF Liberator photographs show that starting with the B-24 made in the B-24J-85-CF block (eg s / n 44 -44052 had no Escape Exit, s / n 44-44089 had) Escape exits were installed on the left side of the Command Deck (it was most likely a post-production modification).
From available photographs of RAF Liberators, it is evident that the aircraft from blocks B-24L-1-FO and B-24L-5-FO had an emergency exit installed on the left side of the Command Deck. In this case, too, it was very likely that there were post-production modification.
Summary: On the production line the Escape hatch on the RIGHT hand side of Command deck was installed as stated on the very top of this page. The rest (either left or right side) were post production modifications.
So, RAAF A72-191 was 44-41984 (M-10-CO) which means that it pre-dates the production line installation of the right side hatch, but because ‘191 was a specialized 200 Flight electronic aircraft, the installation of a right side hatch as part of the modification cannot be ruled out.
Photos of 200Flt aircraft are rare, and despite good coverage of A72-183/NX-R MEDDLESOME MAGGIE, all photographs are taken from angles which mask the ADF loop area.
This means that the hatch is not going to be a way to identify the aircraft positively as, or not as, A72-191.
When I have time later today, I will review all the aircraft in the –CO and –FO serial ranges quoted above and see if any ‘jump out’ as possibles.
First, can you answer my question from the earlier email reference the waist gun hatches, and second, remind me of the location of the wreck again.
Bob
To: Neil, Peter, Paul, Pete & Jude Johnston
Neil.
Pavel Turk has got back to me with the following:
According to the Parts Catalogs the escape exit on the RIGHT side of the Command Deck was installed on the production line on the following aircraft,:
CO: s / n 44-42049 (beginning of block M-15) to s / n 44-42722 (end of block M-45)
FO: s / n 44-49752 (beginning of block L-15) to s / n 44-51928 (end of block M-30) *
* aircraft from later blocks had a window in the exit door (eg B-24M-20-FO s / n 44-51228)
Note: By Ford, as in many other cases, the specific parts were installed on the production line some number of aircraft earlier/later than stated in Parts Catalog.
In October 1943, at a meeting at Langford Lodge, the problem of how to increase the chances of the crews to survive an emergency landing on the water was solved. One of the suggested modifications was the installation of another escape exit on the Command Deck. Prototype installation designed by Lockheed Overseas Corp. was completed at Langford Lodge on B-24H-1-CF 41-29179 in early February 1944. At STA 5.3, an emergency exit of 30in x 26in was installed. The same problem at that time also addressed Scottish Aviation Ltd., Prestwick. Their 24in x 20in escape exit, also located at STA 5.3, was found to be sufficient for the purpose and installation less time consuming. Technical Instruction CTI-1689 issued by the Headquarters of Materiel Command AAF on 19 April 1944 ordered the installation of all B-24 Command Deck escape exit of the same design as the Flight Deck. As follows from the report of the headquarters of BADA (Base Air Depot Area) sent on 18 8th 1944 Commanding General 8th AF, was revised adjustment B24112. The Command Deck escape exit installation has been moved from left side between STA 5.2 and 5.3 to right side between STA 5.3 and 5.4 to match the location of the new B-24 arriving from the US (eg B-24J-1-DT s / n 42-51229 delivered to the UK in June 1944). The telegram dated December 4, 1944 and signed by General J. H. Doolittle shows that the modification kits for installing the Command Deck escape exit were manufactured both in the US and the United Kingdom, and that there were enough on that date. Prior to commissioning, Command Deck emergency exits were installed in Modification Centers in the United States.
The Parts Catalog does not indicate that the Fort Worth aircraft had an escape exit installed on Command Deck, but RAF Liberator photographs show that starting with the B-24 made in the B-24J-85-CF block (eg s / n 44 -44052 had no Escape Exit, s / n 44-44089 had) Escape exits were installed on the left side of the Command Deck (it was most likely a post-production modification).
From available photographs of RAF Liberators, it is evident that the aircraft from blocks B-24L-1-FO and B-24L-5-FO had an emergency exit installed on the left side of the Command Deck. In this case, too, it was very likely that there were post-production modification.
Summary: On the production line the Escape hatch on the RIGHT hand side of Command deck was installed as stated on the very top of this page. The rest (either left or right side) were post production modifications.
So, RAAF A72-191 was 44-41984 (M-10-CO) which means that it pre-dates the production line installation of the right side hatch, but because ‘191 was a specialized 200 Flight electronic aircraft, the installation of a right side hatch as part of the modification cannot be ruled out.
Photos of 200Flt aircraft are rare, and despite good coverage of A72-183/NX-R MEDDLESOME MAGGIE, all photographs are taken from angles which mask the ADF loop area.
This means that the hatch is not going to be a way to identify the aircraft positively as, or not as, A72-191.
When I have time later today, I will review all the aircraft in the –CO and –FO serial ranges quoted above and see if any ‘jump out’ as possibles.
First, can you answer my question from the earlier email reference the waist gun hatches, and second, remind me of the location of the wreck again.
Bob
From: Paul Baker
To: Neil, Robert, Paul, Graeme, David,Paul, Peter, Tony, Mick, Joe
Snake,
Some info on the radar kit etc fitted to the three B-24s on the March 1945 mission from Mindoro. Also two diagrams I came across with the escape hatch in case you haven't seen them...
Still reading...
Paul
(Enlargements)