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Post by okla on Apr 26, 2013 22:28:11 GMT 8
Hey EXO....I feel that I am the one who owes the apology here. On re-reading all these posts in regard to the German=Japanese atrocities,etc, I mistakenly attributed a counter point to my opinions to you instead of to the other contributor. Please accept my apology. At any rate, I still intend to withdraw back to "observer" status, and let those with more expertise do the debating. If I do stick my neck out, in the future (which ain't likely), I still won't be "kidding". Cheers.
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Post by EXO on Apr 27, 2013 18:52:44 GMT 8
Even Stevens on this one, mate. I enjoy your views, and look forward to participation continuing in all areas. You've well earned your status, and you keep us on our toes. That's super necessary in bulletin boards.
It's so difficult to weigh the Nazi Evil against that of the Imperial Evil. Both were emanations of the State, and justified by the most powerful opinion makers in their respective countries. When there is nothing that can gainsay the power, the glory and the wrongheadedness of the Government, the State is lost.
I am inclined to the view that the evil which is denied, is the most corrupting of all.
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Post by Pei Yu on Apr 28, 2013 7:25:58 GMT 8
The greatest atrocity today is denying the atrocities of yesterday...which puts Germany on top of Japan when it comes to moral responsibility. Abe Denies Japan Invaded Asian Neighbors english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2013/04/24/2013042401169.html"Abe claimed there are no set international or academic definitions of the word. "It depends on the point of view of individual countries," he said, referring to a statement in 1995 by then-Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama, which apologized to all Asian victims of Japanese aggression and from which rightwingers are scrambling to distance themselves.On Monday, Deputy Prime Minister Taro Aso and other Japanese politicians visited Tokyo's Yasukuni Shrine, which houses the remains of Japan's war dead including convicted war criminals. On Tuesday, 168 members of the Diet followed suit, the biggest number of lawmakers since 1989. The Japanese government must be living in a cave
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Post by fortune40 on Apr 28, 2013 14:34:27 GMT 8
If this is his view then he is just repeating the warlordism in Japan before they go to China.There were pacifist Japanese in military and official in their government but they were assasinated. Then so the history must be Japanese military just visited China but how do you explain if they kill,rape,brutalized hundred of thousands maybe million Chinese in the process and then continue on to the rest of the Asian continent? To me if they were not invited and just came in by force it is invasion..Just my own opinion i'm also not an expert.
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Post by xray on Jun 11, 2013 13:02:29 GMT 8
Please consider and assist me with my theory as to the comparative evils committed in Europe in the name of ethnic cleansing, and in Asia in the name of liberation from colonial oppression. There's more than one means of dressing up evil, it wears many fashionable coats. I think the solution may rely in trying to distill our debate to what is common between them, rather than what is different. In both I see the primacy of the State - a government grown so big, so absolutely vast, strong and powerful within its regions, that the individual who perpetrated the crimes on its behalf was considered to be protected by the State. In Europe, the acts were conducted under the authority of the functionaries of the Nazi Party, in compliance with written policy. In Asia, the acts were conducted under the authority of the military factions, each faction claiming that their conduct was more greatly in compliance with the desires of the Emperor. Both of them considered that, as between the state and the individual, the ends justified the means, and that they would be protected from criminality by the State. There was never any known written policy/orders concerning "the holocaust" - If there were in fact any, none survived. Alls we really have to go on are a couple veiled references to a "Die Endlösung" [final solution] and some unofficial notes from the Wannsee Conference, a gathering of high Nazi functionaries whos purpose was alleged to be settling the Jewish problem. I bring this up as a matter of accuracy. Sure, one could browse through Mein Kampf and tell fairly accurately that the Jews were not going to fare very well with Nazis ,,, But concerning actual extermination orders from high command, there are none, written or otherwise. As far as The same could pretty much be said about any warring nation - A valid concept really, just so long as you don't end up on the losing side.
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Post by EXO on Jun 11, 2013 19:33:05 GMT 8
My comment about the "highest levels" don't refer to Hitler, specifically. Historians have been fortunate, in one regard, that because Hitler's eyesight was not perfect, all documents intended for his personal reading were prepared with a special typewriter which had a larger than standard font typeface. Documents typed in the "Fuhrer-typewriter" oversize were thus almost certain to have been viewed by Hitler personally.
So though we have no proof of the orders coming down, there's ample proof of information going up the chain to the Fuhrer personally - for example, when a report is submitted to Hitler, it is sent back to the Reich Main Security Office bearing the notation "The Fuhrer has taken note:destroy. -- H.H."
One can sense how special care is taken to ensure that even a Final Solution codeword such as Sonderbehandlung is eliminated from written reports to the Fuhrer, yet in speeches held before wide audiences (and not only to SS officers, but to regular officers of the Wehrmacht), Himmler openly refers to Hitler's order. What's written is permanent, but what is said is deniable.
"The formula "the Fuhrer's wish" was understood by everybody concerned to mean a Fuhrer-order."
I have quoted liberally from "Hitler and the Final Solution" by Gerald Fleming, University of California Press (1984) in which the issue is treated comprehensively.
One can see how a Fuhrer's oral comments, and today even a President's comments, can, by passage through networks of the highest authority, can become a de facto policy "on Orders from the Highest Level". In a bureaucracy, deniability of an improper policy, however implausible, is protection.
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Post by xray on Jun 12, 2013 12:50:49 GMT 8
There is no denying a comprehensive plan by Nazis to systematically commit mass atrocities. I only took issue with the statement of "the acts were conducted under the authority of the functionaries of the Nazi Party, in compliance with written policy" ... There was no written policy, per se. Most Germans involved in the dirty business of mass murder simply received orders and carried them out, although doubtless there were no shortage of sadists who relished in their blood soaked trade, as there were, and would be, in other nations subjected to similar deprivations. Most were young men who grew up with the sounds of jackboots and Hitlers voice booming in their ears, he was truly larger than life to them, and they could not conceive of disobeying orders on any moral grounds, or even that what they were ordered to do was wrong. As with most common military men, they didn't have a grasp of the big picture, and most did not likely consider for one moment that they were part of a criminal conspiracy. In this highly regimented and intimidating environment, at such an exceptional and demented period of history, the actual need for any written orders was greatly reduced to a bare minimum ,,, And, as stated, none are known to have survived if there were any.
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