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Post by EXO on Sept 2, 2018 10:23:21 GMT 8
These two images are from the National Archives. I have reproduced their captions, because they're important. Now, for those of us who have managed to make it to Btry. Monja, I can remember someone saying that the powder and shell magazines there were the only concrete 'cathedral' ceilings on the Island. (I can't recall any others, but I do suffer from oldtimer's disease.) It seems to me that SC 289614 (above) shows a concrete ceiling, which is not quite classic cathedral, but it is igloo style. If the assumption is true (in life, one is best never agreeing with an assumption which starts an article, because it is almost always misleading or just plain wrong) - would suggest that the radar installation was inside Btry. Monja? Except that the date on the images, 3 March 1945, indicates that wherever the radar installation was, it was in American hands - and Btry Monja was not. If not Btry Monja, then where on Wheeler Point? The captions seem to make it clear that it was Wheeler Point and not in a tunnel under Battery Wheeler. While we are at it, are there any of you radio/radar types out there who can tell from the two images whether it was actually radar, or something else?
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Post by oozlefinch on Sept 2, 2018 11:10:23 GMT 8
As someone who has been in Monja, albeit 30 years ago, I concur with your observation. That said, and assuming that it is in the area of Wheeler Point, where could it be? It doesn't look like anywhere in Battery Wheeler, or in Wheeler Tunnel that I remember. Monja would have been a logical location, but, as you pointed out, Monja wasn't in American hands until months later, so that lets out Monja, along with SL-4. With the igloo type ceiling, it makes me think of something dug into a hillside, such as the the Site A Magazine (that's a real SWAG!). At this point I think they got the caption wrong.
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Post by EXO on Sept 2, 2018 12:01:01 GMT 8
Thank you, Oozlefinch. There's something that just doesn't "click", I agree with you there, and we seem to be left with nothing more concrete than our SWAGs. Bad caption is a possibility. So where is there an igloo ceiling as pictured? I am looking forward to the views of Karl and Fots, both regular visitors here who have visited Monja. I can see the possibility/probability of the radio masts being on top of the cliffs at Wheeler Point though.
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Post by fortman on Sept 2, 2018 13:01:55 GMT 8
I had a look at photos of Monja shown a few years ago in this site (probably taken by Fots or Karl). There is a photo of a tunnel with a circular-arch ceiling, not a "cathedral" shape, so the captions could be correct.
Fortman
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Post by fots2 on Sept 2, 2018 23:49:18 GMT 8
I do not have a definitive answer for you but here are some quick late night thoughts for everyone. - There are at least four domed roof structures on Corregidor. They are all similar in size and shape. As an example, some of you may have seen the one at the Pistol Range at the west side of Engineer Ravine. I don’t think the photo is one of them. - SMSH #8 in the hillside where Cheney Ravine meets the coastal cliffs has a domed roof. It is not too far from Wheeler Point. Also, I do not think this is the one in the photo. - Searchlight Shelters along the coast near Wheeler Point do not have domed roofs. Rule them out. Unless the concrete domed structure is buried and not known to us today, my guess is this the photos are at Battery Monja. - The left side and right side magazines have domed roofs exactly like in the photo. Note the white horizontal streak in the rear concrete wall. (Photos below). This streak can be seen in the left side magazine although it does not look exactly the same in my photo. Perhaps it is not the same place or just what 73 years of moisture etc has done to it. - I think the antenna tower would have to be relatively close the equipment. Note the photo of the collapsed tower. Is that the casemate edge of Battery Monja sticking out of the hillside? As to the question, is that really a radar set in the photo? There are similarities between radios and radar equipment however radios do not have one thing; a Cathode Ray Tube for viewing the reflected signals from a target. That may be what can be seen lying on the table at the bottom left. I found an old CRT photo on the internet which was labeled “CRT from an early Radar” for you to use as a comparison. Finally, I cannot explain the discrepancy between the dates of the photos and when Battery Monja was back in US hands. One little item to consider came to me from armyjunk years ago. Note the Signal Corps label at the top of his photo. If the “45” signifies 1945 then EXO’s two photos may not be mislabeled. As EXO says, this rules out Battery Monja. That’s all for now. Any thoughts? note the streak on the rear wall similar streak on armyjunk and EXO photos. (photo courtesy of armyjunk) Casemate edge? Is that a CRT? (photo courtesy of armyjunk) CRT from early radar
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Post by EXO on Sept 3, 2018 18:28:19 GMT 8
Thanks Fots,
I appreciate the info, and quite understand the difficulty, perhaps impossibility, of tracking that definitive answer. You have brought us closer to an answer, that is quite certain. The answer is a definite YES on the Japanese attempting to set up a radar structure on Corregidor at some point, for your observation of the CRT tube is undeniable! Whether it became operable, who knows!
Your listing of 4 domed roof structures is handy, and only because you mentioned it do I now remember the structure near the pistol range, and SMSH#8. Yet even recognizing them, we still seem to be left with Monja, don't we. Your technical observations appear to me to be beyond challenge, as does your surmise that the antenna tower would have to be very close to the equipment, and thus almost adjacent to the casemate edge of Battery Monja. So, how did the Signal Corps photographer get to Monja on 3 March? There is NO documentary record of the 503d getting there, and I have had access to more of their records than most. Similarly, I have spoken to Abbott ("E" Co) and Lindgren "D" Co, and Calhoun ("F" Co.) and they are all explicitly clear that the 503d did not attain Monja.
I have letters from at least one of the New Year's Day 20. kanehiro Ishikawa and Tadashi Koike both were 1st class privates who continued "hiding in a cave in the west end of the island." Another was Mr.Kinji Ebisawa, petty officer 1st class. They "hid in caves in groups of 2 to 3 or 3 to 4. Activities in the daylight were impossible, so they came out of the caves at night, searching for food."Their dwellings were set up as far away from each other as possible.
Nowhere do the Japanese actually specify Monja. Yet that was where they were geographically centered.
There is the possibility that a photographic party just blundered into Monja and the japanese withdrew temporatily, though even this seems too fantastic to be readily believed!
More in due course, I hope!
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Post by joeconnor53 on Sept 4, 2018 9:52:26 GMT 8
My radio experts have come through. It's a Navy model 3, mark 1, type 3 Japanese radar unit, operating at about 150 mhz. Here's more information: Japanese Radar Unit______ Thanks Joe, you've nailed it! Even the antenna photo looks of an identical type. - Exo
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Post by fots2 on Sept 4, 2018 18:37:38 GMT 8
Very good Joe. Thank-you.
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Post by fortman on Sept 5, 2018 2:26:42 GMT 8
Wow!Nailed all right.
Question: Was the radar to pick up ships or aircraft?
Fortman
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Post by Karl Welteke on Sept 5, 2018 8:25:33 GMT 8
Only a few thoughts:
Re 3rd March 1945, the Japanese Soldiers that hid in that area were not the suicide type, they wanted to survive! Based on what EXO said they apparently tried very hard to stay out of harm’s way (contact with the US soldiers).
The magazine at Infantry Point has domed spaces but both have doors at each end, no solid end walls.
Fots2 picture is close but not close enough but it sure could be that place.
Those antenna posts on top of Wheeler Point, that is what some of us think they are, others thing they are stands for machine guns, could have a connection.
So we don’t know for sure.
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