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Post by EXO on Jul 10, 2009 10:18:57 GMT 8
ABOUT OUR NAMING SCHEME
Concerning the names that we have given to these Tunnels, we do not know with certainty whether we have named them correctly. Based upon memoirs of those who were there, the tunnels under USN control were allocated the names Queen, Roger, Sugar and Tare.
The USN is a very methodical body, so we allocated Queen to the southern entrance which exits at the south shore road, on a temporary and tentative basis only. We are not by any means certain if this is Queen at all. It was, as they say, a place to start and we had to start somewhere. We needed to call it something, and Queen was easier than calling it "the tunnel entrance along Malinta Hill's south shore road."
Thus, the other entrances became Roger, and Sugar. I have seen a fourth entrance between Sugar and the West portal of Malinta Tunnel, and I have thus called it Tare.
If there's anyone who has any better information which allows us to "rebuild" the map of the Navy Tunnels under Malinta Hill with the correct nomenclature, we are very keen to hear from you.
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Post by okla on Jul 10, 2009 11:33:10 GMT 8
hi EXO.....i just cant fathom the fact that there arent some definitive records somewhere detailing all the info concerning the navy tunnels. this was an extensive, ambitious undertaking. a person just has to assume that blueprints, designs,etc exist somewhere. the navy department, you would think, would have something on this. we need some person who actually was involved in the project. maybe there is some old goat (or descendents) living in sunny southern california, near san diego navy station who might stumble on this website and reveal all to this group of interested persons.
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Post by EXO on Jul 10, 2009 13:38:34 GMT 8
The maps which we have been working off, Army maps all, have been declassified long ago as the mid 1980's. The USN ran the war from the Navy Department, and their maps never seem to have been declassified - if they had have been, then why haven't we seen them?
I believe they do exist, and are still not declassified, and I will tell you why I believe they won't ever be.
A part of the answer lays is the institutional secrecy of the USN operation in the Pacific generally, and on Corregidor in particular. It was intimately connected with communication, tapping the international cables, signal interception, traffic analysis and code-breaking. Some of this was in direct breach of all the international norms.
Most of the submarine replensihment had been done in Cavite, and there essentially was very little happening under Malinta Hill until after the destruction at Cavite.
One also needs to consider the decisions made by the Federal Government at the Washington Naval Conference. Though I might refer to the Washington Naval Conference as if it was but one conference and one agreement, it was more in truth an ongoing process of agreements by which Japan took advantages from a weak-willed US administration to build its Imperial Navy, and the US took what it thought was the advantage of spending less upon the defense of its interests in the Pacific and the Philippines.
The effects went well beyond tonnages - it allowed Washington to justify severe reductions in defense spending over a protracted period throughout the inter-war years, as the Democrat Administration spent money for domestic purposes rather than for defense. The development of bases throughout the Pacific was prohibited - thus, spending for any capital enhancement of Corregidor became an issue which essentially was against the international agreements its very own government had entered into. So one might even come to the conclusion that improvements on Corregidor - which could clearly be established through maps - were not only secret from the Japanese, but also secret from Washington.
Thus, one could argue that to declassify certain documents today might well provide evidence of the military acting unlawfully at the time, and of keeping secrets from its own government.
Now, we "know" that this never happens, of course, hence the continuing reluctance to release any proof that it ever happened on Corregidor throughout that disarmament period.
I'd really like someone to make a complete liar of me on this issue, specifically by sending me a declassified map of the Navy installations upon Corregidor.
But I am not holding my breath.
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Post by okla on Jul 10, 2009 22:33:02 GMT 8
hey EXO...what you say certainly has the ring of truth as far as i am concerned. i would think any fair minded person would have a rather difficult time in refuting what you have stated. it WOULD seem that the administration back in the 1930s viewed government spending on corregidor as having no economic benefit on the economy/employment/etc back in the states. i read or heard somewhere that the initial construction of the malinta tunnel was justified by saying that it was needed to have trolley service to the eastern portion of the island. the thinking being that surely the japs (and our own people in washington) wouldnt view it as a treaty violation,etc. i like your opinions on this whole subject.
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Post by mapmaster on Jul 11, 2009 20:11:31 GMT 8
Hi EXO
Sorry, can't go along with naming the South Entrance - Tunnel "Queen".
The Corregidor Hymn
"First to jump for holes and tunnels And to keep our skivies clean,
We are proud to claim the title of Corregidor's Marines.
"Our drawers unfurled to every breeze From dawn to setting sun.
We have jumped into every hole and ditch And for us the fightin' was fun.
"We have plenty of guns and ammunition But not cigars and cigarettes,
At the last we may smoking leaves Wrapped in Nipponese propaganda leaflets.
"When the Army and the Navy Looked out Corregidor's Tunnel Queen,
They saw the beaches guarded by more than one Marine!
Second last and last verse mentions seeing more than one Marine guarding the beaches when the Army and Navy look out of Corregidor's Tunnel Queen. Can't see a beach easily from South Entrance on the South Shore Road.
There are also survivors of the 1942 battles that suggest Queen contained the Navy's radio equipment. Similar references have been made to Queen being raided for food at the time of the 1942 surrender, including a Japanese soldier looking for tinned pineapple. Doesn't sound like the South Entrance on the South Shore Road.
However, I have no real suggestions. Queen, Roger, Sugar and Tare: T for torpedoes; R for radios, S for stores and Q for?? The tunnel we are calling Roger looks like it contained generaters or some form of machinery.
Regards
mapmaster
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Post by EXO on Jul 11, 2009 23:14:26 GMT 8
Sorry, we will have to do better than a sing song. Q-R-S-T are just the phonetic abbreviations of the day. It makes one conjecture what were A-Able, B-Baker etc. that the Navy got all the way towards the end of the alphabet. Boy, that would be a document worth discovering! I tried to get Al McGrew to recall the name of the tunnel entrance he mentioned in the following episode, but it eluded him. “Each man will take one of the cases and you will all follow me,” he said loudly and turned around and walked out of the lateral to the other lateral where he turned left again and continued onward. I had picked up one of the smaller cases, and I was thankful for that as I followed the man ahead along the tunnel until we could see bright light ahead. It proved to be another entrance into Malinta of which I was unaware of. Once we left the confines of the tunnel the column turned right and I realized we were on the South Shore Road! The column proceeded along the road which wound around the base of Malinta Hill. I found it necessary to change the case to my other shoulder and during this move I found it contained apple sauce. Even that sounded good by this time, but I was eaten by the desire for steak! Meat of any kind would suffice I thought as I plodded along in the long, twisting line of men carrying the one thing we needed most, food!The road curved left, and down to another road that spanned Bottomside, from the North Dock, across the narrow neck of land to the South Dock which seemed to be our destination. A large barge sat very high in the water was moored at the very end of the dock, and that was where we were directed to, carrying the cases of food.
“What irony,” I thought, the very food that was denied us, we were forced to carry onto a Japanese barge for their use! How the hell could this happen? I wondered as I flopped the case of apple sauce down on the ever growing stack of canned food.
Once we deposited the boxes onto the barge, we learned that the game was “Go back and get another case,” and so on.....When I returned to the “pantry” I was the recipient of a case of peaches. Now this was not just peaches, it was peach halves in natural juice, whatever that was. On this trip, I noticed the men were getting stretched out, and I was tempted to dive into this case, since I rather liked peaches!
“I got sweetened condensed milk,” a voice said to no one in particular.
I mentioned that I had peaches, but absolutely no way to get into a can. The guy with the sweetened condensed milk notified me that he was in possession of “a bunch” of those little finger type can openers! I asked if I could borrow one, and he said no, but I could have one if I was willing to share it with my friends. I took the opener and looked around for guards, I saw none and I put the peaches on the ground and carefully lifted one flap of the case and manipulated one of the cans from the interior of the box. Without a doubt, I broke numerous records opening a #2½ can and I was quick to stuff a peach half into my mouth and I practically gulped it down! I performed that so smoothly that I decided to try it again!......and again! My stomach felt as though I had swallowed a coconut, but I wasn’t hungry anymore! I drank the juice and quickly replaced the empty can, hoisted the case once more and jauntily strolled to the South Dock, the case of peaches on my bony shoulder.
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Post by mapmaster on Jul 12, 2009 7:50:58 GMT 8
Good morning EXO
The Corregidor Hymn - a 'sing song'.
The path of Al McGrew's journey, with the case of food, almost sounds like he traveled from one of the eastern laterals of the QM Area and then left to the South Entrance on South Shore Road.
I am worried about renaming these tunnels. They may have been named once. We should be sure the names are correct before committing them to paper.
Queen, Roger, Sugar and Tare, that makes four. But wait, there's more, there are five Navy Tunnels (or more). What do we call the extra one?
Regards
mapmaster
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Post by armyjunk on Jul 21, 2009 1:39:40 GMT 8
where are the names Sugar and Tare coming from??
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Post by mapmaster on Jul 22, 2009 17:10:47 GMT 8
Hi armyjunk
I have a scan of a map drawn in 1993 by Bob Mc??? - sorry can't read the name. The map was scanned in low dpi and is almost unreadable. It's blurry just like most things to do with these tunnels.
However, there is some visible detail including some Navy Tunnel names. From north to south facing San Jose: AFFIRM; BOXER; and ROGER. There are two other tunnels marked on the map further south. The southern most tunnel is marked as containing machinery, but neither of these tunnels is named on the map.
A similar map was produced by Bob Abbott. Bob has the tunnel second from the southern most named QUEENS.
How have these names have been derived?
Now, the only comments I can make are drawn from published documents and from accounts of survivors of the 1942 battles. These only use the names AFFIRM and QUEEN. They are: 1. AFFIRM has been used for the Navy Intercept Tunnel in one publication. I know from released documentation of the operations of the Navy Intercept Operations on Luzon and on Corregidor that the intercept work went under the codename CAST.
2. QUEEN has been referred to extensively in many publications. Some of the references were to obtaining food supplies from QUEEN in May 1942; one reference has QUEEN containing the Navy Officer Commanding; and other references mention the Navy Communications Centre (Navy communications for Fleet Operations and not to be confused with Navy Intercept) being in QUEEN, backed by prisoners removing radio equipment from QUEEN.
So, where too now? Help!
Regards
mapmaster
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Post by fots2 on Jul 22, 2009 21:50:48 GMT 8
can’t wait to see how this thread continues!!! Discrepancy with “B” tunnel No “E” tunnel? Would the above names come with any location info? If this proves to be correct, would the two existing tunnels we know of today be Queen (with engine pads) and Roger to the north of it? What is the source of your info armyjunk?
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