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Post by fots2 on Aug 2, 2009 21:15:39 GMT 8
The tunnel entrances in the Japanese photo look to be too far apart to be sequential laterals starting from the south. Also they are not evenly spaced in the photo. However as we have seen with the other tunnels, there may be a turn just inside the entrance to line up with the parallel laterals.
Is there any information which tells us exactly which three laterals were extended out to the hillside? (i.e. S-2, S-4 and S-6)
If so then the other three entrances could be located from the inside out so to speak. Since we know the tunnel plans including measurements and have a known starting point (the original south entrance), we could estimate where they should appear.
Actually it is a small area and we already know roughly where the entrances are. This method might improve our guesses though.
I assume we still do not know the exact names of the two tunnels which still exist today.
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Post by EXO on Aug 2, 2009 21:16:42 GMT 8
Found at: corregidor.org/chs_reports/2000/2000_report.htm Danny [Howell] pointed out that the Belotes’ had gotten it wrong in naming the four ‘Navy’ tunnels along the western side. The correct names were Queen, Roger, Sugar & Tare. I noticed that they were sequenced QRS&T, and wondered whether this meant there had been a system of names involved. Danny often liked to point out where the Belotes had gotten it wrong. He later showed me what was one of the most dog-eared books I have ever seen, virtually worn out by being marked, referenced, corrected, critiqued and footnoted almost to destruction.
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Post by batteryboy on Aug 2, 2009 21:27:33 GMT 8
I agree that the Belotes had errors in their book.
Going back to the Navy tunnels, a source just sent me 3 documents that mentions Affirm, Baker Roger and Queen on Corregidor. Even the sequencing is different as they did not follow a sequential pattern. It looks like that Roger came ahead of Queen ( R, Q) rather than Q and then R. I am awaiting for another document that hopefully shows a sketch or diagram.
So am holding my breath for the meantime.
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Post by EXO on Aug 3, 2009 5:55:37 GMT 8
The allegation is now that the Belotes may be wrong on this, and this makes Danny Howell’s reasons for saying what he did important, for he is the one who says it.
There's no Yank alive who has spent more time on Corregidor studying it than him. Shame, though he's not the sort who we can just e-mail and ask.
Though the Belotes may be considered the oldest generally available book, that doesn’t give them the Bible’s infallibility.
Notice also that it is 'afirm' not 'affirm'. Gawd only knows why, maybe an attack of the dreaded automatic spell-checker.
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Post by batteryboy on Aug 3, 2009 7:23:49 GMT 8
Well that is Howell's own analysis. I am not saying he is wrong nor he is right. The Belotes were treated like the grand daddy's as far as the general book about Corregidor but just like any grand daddy stories, the younger ones pick up which are right and correct which are wrong.
Howell lived on Corregidor yes but there are other Americans that also spent more time like Jim Black who was born there and was a already a local here and he has been studying the Harbor Defenses since the the late 50s and he has seen and discovered many things that us the younger generation have not seen including the conditions of the other harbor forts even before they were totally scrapped. So far right now, i am just absorbing any information I get and cross reference it with as much official record (if there is any) that exist. Sometimes, event the official reports get tangled in one way or the other.
Credit the wrong spelling to fat fingers.
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Post by mapmaster on Aug 3, 2009 17:12:33 GMT 8
Hi fots2 and All
With regard to your question on which tunnels of the partly constructed 1934 QM Area may have been extended to form the three now buried Navy Tunnel Entrances. The only comment I can make is, using the above map and the 1942 Japanese photograph, the entrances somewhat align with extending laterals S-14, S-18 and S-20 to the slope of Malinta Hill.
There may have been a bend near the portal of each tunnel, similar to the two visible Navy portals.
On the above map, it can be seen that the Main South System Tunnel was partly built up to where S-20 was planned. Perhaps the three Navy Tunnels were driven from the slope of Malinta Hill to the Main Tunnel.
fots2, during your recent underground journey, you entered S-2.
Regards
mapmaster
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Post by fots2 on Aug 3, 2009 21:10:17 GMT 8
Hi mapmaster, Thanks for your comments on the three tunnels. Yes, heading west I made it 15 metres into S-2 before a full collapse prevented me going any further. From your map I can see that I was less than half way along what was a 38 metre long lateral in 1934. In 1934, it appears that S-2 did not exit out to the hill side. Since it was so close I wonder if that ever was built. This is the area on the hillside above the South Shore Road in which I found the rebar sticking out of the cliff. This may or may not have had anything to do with a tunnel entrance at this location. Imagine…a sixth Navy Tunnel entrance. Now I am really confusing things.
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Post by EXO on Aug 3, 2009 21:48:19 GMT 8
TO ARMYJUNK I was trying to find a cache of that for Mapmaster & Fots, and found this instead: Hi guys, Has someone seen a reference where the tunnel is referred to as the Queen(S) tunnel, I would think the correct phonetic alphabet term would be Queen. Also I have a detailed blueprint of Malinta tunnel dated 1940 and the Army used the terms E,W,S,AND N plus a number and the use to ID the difference tunnels. An example.... coming in the West Entrance the first tunnel on the right is ORD No18 (W-1). This plan also shows a large section of the Southern tunnels as "CAVED IN", remember this is July 1940. A detailed blueprint of Malinta Tunnel dated 1940?
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Post by fots2 on Aug 4, 2009 12:57:52 GMT 8
Armyjunk, if you have such a blueprint, posting it would make a lot of people's day here. An accurate layout of the tunnel system a few months before the war started would be great.
Detailed information such as that blueprint will be lost forever if someone such as yourself does not share it with all interested. There is no point to secrecy now.
Please post a high resolution scan of it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2009 6:34:09 GMT 8
This is an amazing document. I think this starts to answer a lot of old questions. And create a lot of new ones.
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