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Post by The Phantom on May 16, 2013 6:15:35 GMT 8
Having been fascinated with Battery Geary's area history, stopping there every trip, this added information puts more pieces together in my personal puzzle. Thanks.......... Based on the position of the mortar in the 1942 photo, I would like to offer the following suggestion. The damaged wall behind the mortar.........the damage to the wall was caused by the mortar's impact when flung into the wall by the explosion. The damage resembles the length of the mortar, more or less. A fascinating thread to all interested in discovering true history.
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Post by fots2 on May 16, 2013 22:43:43 GMT 8
Hi Patty, That is interesting about Battery Hartford. It was a 3”AA battery which had been quickly set-up on the sloped hillside in front of Battery Ramsay. If you go there today, little remains of Battery Hartford. Positions fortified by rusting powder cans filled with soil and rocks can be seen though. I never noticed a piece of concrete “level with the ground” but it is probably covered with leaves, branches and soil by now. One thing that is very obvious are huge chunks of concrete lying around the area. Some are as tall as I am. I would guess that most of them came from the magazines and parapet of Battery Ramsay when it blew up but a chunk or two certainly could have came from Battery Geary.
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Post by fots2 on May 16, 2013 22:48:41 GMT 8
Hi Phantom,
Your suggestion sounds quite reasonable to me. There is not only damage to the wall at the impact area but a long crack to the right of it. Something hit hard.
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Post by wwalker on May 17, 2013 10:19:34 GMT 8
Hello,
I have a question about the Battery Command Post for Battery Geary (H 59th CAC). According to an account written by the battery commander, Captain Thomas Davis, the post was located "on top side of the golf course and about 300 yards from the battery." After looking at the 1921 Corregidor map that gives details of each structure on the island at the time, I have found a building in the Northeast area of what I presume was the golf course labeled "BC B" and "F"3. The symbol key for the map indicates that the first label means "Combined Battery Commander's Station and Primary Station of Battery." The second symbol indicates "Secondary Fire Command Station". I wonder if this was indeed the Battery Command Post? The post in question is precisely where Cpt. Davis was located when the explosion at Geary occurred. Does anyone have any idea which structure this is?
WW
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Post by chadhill on May 17, 2013 11:19:15 GMT 8
Bravo Zulu, fots! Great detective work and analysis. Your photos showing where the concrete wall was destroyed (probably when the magazine blew), combined with the identical then-and-now damage pattern seen on the wall, prove the mortar position today is very near that shown in the 1942 newsreel. Nice job. That's a good SWAG about the concrete in E-II-5, also.
I, too, think Phantom's SWAG about the mortar causing the damage on the wall is very plausible.
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Post by fots2 on May 17, 2013 18:56:00 GMT 8
Hi WW, You opened a can of worms with that one. Actually that is not a bad at all, we can figure it out. What makes this more difficult is that over time, the function of different command and fire control stations seems to have changed as the numbers on maps were changed. First, some background: F’ within a circle = Primary Fire Command Station. F’’ within a square = Secondary Fire Command Station. B’ within a circle = Primary Station of a Battery. B’’ within a square = Secondary Station of a Battery. BC = Battery Commander’s Station To further confuse the things, functions can be combined within any single station. Second, the battery number of Battery Geary was #3. (Battery Way was #7). Third, the primary and secondary B&F stations for Battery Geary were at two different locations. Two were on Way Hill just west of Battery Way. The third one was where you described it NE of the Golf Course. Finally, here is what I think would have been correct using the information on the 1921 map. On Way Hill: F'3 within a circle = Primary Fire Command Station of Battery Geary. B'3 within a circle = Primary Station of Battery Geary. NE of the Golf Course:F''3 within a square = Secondary Fire Command Station of Battery Geary. BC and B'' within a square&circle = Combined Battery Commander’s Station and Secondary Station. This last one is a bit confusing in that there is no number to identify the battery but there are clues. The 1932 map labels this structure as for Battery Geary. Just to mess things up, the 1935 map labels this structure as BC and B''7 which would be for Battery Way. One year later on the 1936 map, this same structure is now labeled as for Battery Geary again. I think that you have provided the best evidence that came from the battery commander himself. He says his BC was about 300 yards from the battery, he would know. BC and B’’ is about 300 yards from the battery. Way Hill is three times that distance from Battery Geary. I hope this helps
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Post by wwalker on May 18, 2013 10:21:00 GMT 8
Thanks for the info Fots! I appreciate the help. I'm sure the designations for BC's and fire control may have changed from time to time, especially once the war began. I've even heard stories that the lighthouse was used as a fire control station after Bataan fell and was used by Major Harry Julian and a crew of about 8 soldiers to spot artillery fire for the roving 155 battery's. They were constantly having to go out and repair their communication lines from the artillery fire they were in the midst of, oftentimes at great danger to their safety.
WW
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Post by beirutvet on Jul 31, 2014 1:31:57 GMT 8
Hey Fots
Thanks so much for all the time and research into Geary. On my next trip there, I plan to spend much more time there to investigate.
A quick question for you on the ammo used by the 12" mortars. There are two different ones, the pointed 700lb and the larger 1049lb blunt end ones. In your diagrams at the beginning posts, both are listed as "Deck Piercing", but in subsequent posts the 700 pounders are referred to as High Explosive. Which designation is correct?
I was lead to believe that the mortars were at a distinct disadvantage at the outset of the war in that all of their ammo was of the deck piercing variety and not as effective as High Explosive for the task at hand. With that in mind the designation as Deck Piercing makes sense but they are such radically different designs. I think the 700 pounders ARE High Explosive, but that would not jive with the info that they had no HE. Was no HE not factual, or maybe they just had a lot less of it?
You are our Final Jeopardy go-to guy for answers, can you shed light on this one for me?
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Post by fots2 on Jul 31, 2014 6:19:41 GMT 8
beirutvet, I do not know the exact quantity of each type of ammunition Corregidor’s mortar batteries had available to them at the start of the war. HE shells were said to be in short supply. It may have been in Col. Bunker’s book where he stated that they tried to modify the fuses of deck piercing shells to make them detonate on impact rather than after the usual delay. Apparently this attempt was less than successful. DP shells exploding underground caused minimal damage. Both shell designations are correct. There are two types of 700lb shells (“High Explosive” AND “Deck Piercing”). HE shells are only 700lb. For DP shells there are three types; 700lb, 824lb and 1046lb. Note the following tables and photos. Here are a few more photos for you: To be honest, I am no expert at Coast Defense equipment and have no intention of ever becoming one; I am just an explorer with a camera. Many others on this site can help you with details better than I so feel free to ask anyone. If you want to get really deep into this I suggest you join a group called CDSG (Coast Defense Study Group). They are a good bunch of people and you will surely find someone to count bolts with you. Someday we may meet on Corregidor and we can wander around together. In the meantime, there is a lot to learn…have fun.
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Post by beirutvet on Jul 31, 2014 7:19:48 GMT 8
Hey Fots2
YES, THAT WAS IT! I remember reading about Col Bunker's report where he said they were trying to modify the fuses to make them explode on contact but were not having much success. I had only taken from that that there was no HE available, not just in short supply. So then there was HE there, just not in great quantity. And seeing those diagrams back to back to back brought it into better focus. There was the pointed design in both DP and HE, the DP version being shorter and with a slightly rounded nose where as the HE had a much sharper nose design and was considerably longer than the DPs. The big daddys though were of course the 1049lb DPs. also much longer than even the 700lb HEs
And no, I am not so much interested in counting bolts, that different design just stuck out so much, you must admit that there is a big difference in the look of the 1049 and the 700s, and was confusing how they were both listed as DP. I am just like you, an explorer with a camera, and we WILL meet up on The Rock some day and have our own adventures.
But while we are on the subject of the CDSG, looking for them is how I found THIS site. Do you know where their site (if any) resides? This subject matter is so interesting and SOOOO addictive, I can't get enough. I would like to see what they have.
Thanks for the additional tables and photos, MUCH appreciated.
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