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Post by cbuehler on Nov 14, 2012 1:17:19 GMT 8
I always find myself wondering just how the evidence of battle has so completely disappeared from Bataan today. Bataan to me is one of my favorite provinces, not only for its history, but natural beauty. I am aware that the population of the former battlefields has of course increased enormously since the war, and cultivation has overtaken much of the former jungles that one always reads so much of. I do think however that much of Bataan even prior to the war was cultivated more than the histories give the impression of. The first line of battle at the Abucay line actually has not changed much since the war and even then it was open with mostly grass and with the only jungled areas being along the river cuts. Certainly the area around the eastern flanks of Samat and all along the eastern coast was cultivated, leaving the mountains and western portions of Bataan more jungled. I also recall seeing photos of Mt. Samat in the 70's and it was barren, just a grass covered mountain before they started the reforestation programs. I would assume that the reason it was still barren up to then was what the histories describe as the result of the bombardments and fires which denuded it during the war. The battle of Capot hill describes an area of Bamboo thickets wherein the Japanese were surrounded and finally decimated. I have often wondered just where this could have been located as there seems to be no such thickets in the general area today. The period maps show the area to have been not far south of the Pilar/Bagac road. I would love to see photos of the area from the 50's or 60's. I am sure they would be very informative.
CB
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Post by okla on Nov 14, 2012 1:39:47 GMT 8
Hey cb.....I have never gotten it straight, in my mind, as to how the topography,etc as pertains to undergrowth, etc in the "Pockets" area was in 1942. I do know, according to some of John Toland and other writers accounts that the region was very rugged terrain, but as to how much was heavy undergrowth, cleared farming plots or thick jungle, etc has escaped me. There have been a few recent photos of this region posted and it is obvious that it would have been a tough place to slug it out. If there was heavy undergrowth, forest, etc in 1942, it is obvious why it took such an extended time to extract the enemy from his dug in positions. Do you have any ideas or actual knowledge on this question. Cheers.
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Post by cbuehler on Nov 14, 2012 6:28:29 GMT 8
Hi Okla! With regard to the "Pockets" area up near the Cotar river area, I did take a very short hike going a little south of where the marker for this battle is now located (along the Pilar/Bagac road just past a small bridge). According to period maps, the pockets were less than a mile south of this point. The river, actually a shallow stream, split off into two streams and were bordered by bamboo thickets. Just beyond this area the land opened up more with rolling hills and appeared quite cultivated with areas of fruit trees and others. No sign of the dense jungle as usually described. The area which I took to be the general locations of the pockets is jungle no more and I did not proceed further. One would need GPS to try and pin down the locations better, but they would appear to be cultivated now.
CB
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Post by okla on Nov 14, 2012 7:27:25 GMT 8
Hey cb...Thanks for the "briefing". From my limited reading of accounts of the "Pockets" fight, there was, evidently, dense undergrowth. Enough so that the few tanks that were placed in the area to root out the isolated Japanese units, were of little or no use. 1942 is a long time ago, as I, personally attest, and I am sure the land around the "Pockets" sector has been cleared to some extent, if at all possible. Time, she does march on and the face of Mother Earth acclimates, even in the region along the banks of the "scenic" Tuol/Cotar Rivers. Cheers.
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Post by Karl Welteke on Nov 19, 2012 19:26:49 GMT 8
Main Line of Resistance (MLR), Bataan, San Vicente Rv. Section 2012-11-17 Continuing exploring the 1942 Bataan Main Line of Resistance (MLR); this is the San Vicente River Section. If you like to look at my short album with 43 images and descriptions they are here: s74.photobucket.com/albums/i265/PI-Sailor/Manila%20Bay%20Forts-Other/Bataan%20Defense/MLR%20Bataan%201942/MLR%20San%20Vicente%20Rv%202012-11-17/The walk was 16 km and I took 260 images and they are here with only short titles: pisailor.multiply.com/photos/album/141/Main-Line-of-Resistance-MLR-Bataan-San-Vicente-Rv.-Section-2012-11-17 Here are some sample images: I BELIEVE I MANAGED TO UPLOAD 20 OUT OF 20. HALLELUJAH !!!!!! But I did everything like I always did before? ?? Mt. Limay, Mt. Mariveles and Mt. Samat at right off the picture. This is what the Japanese must have looked at as they were approaching the Main Line of Resistance (MLR). The MLR run across at the bottom of those distant ridgelines. What attracted me here on this map is the landmark, the San Vicente River. One has to cross rice fields to reach it and I approached it only at a few places. My GPS track of this walk; it was a little over 16 km and as you can seen I followed many trails. A bigger picture of the area I walked today with my GPS track. A close-up picture of my walk today. Here is another little valley between the San Miguel chicken gate and the next east ridge. I went across that next east ridge and went down into the San Vicente River valley, here it runs north to south. I decided not to cross here and went further up valley I went further up valley and the ridge at right until the trail crossed the river here and I followed it. Looking NW, across the San Vicente River, and we see the very large and very modern San Miguel Corporation chicken operation On the plateau, looking SW, Mt. Samat is ahead. What has happened to the jungle, WWII stories always talk about? Was that an old mango tree or one of those left over jungle trees? After wandering around the plateau, east of the San Vicente River Valley and slowly heading north I came across the east-west road. This may have been the road that run parallel, south of and behind the MLR. The plateau ends in many low ridgeline tips pointing N or NE, all of them are shaded like this Continuing west back on the parallel road I come across this sign and anther trail going down and north. This sign gives the area an name: Bilolo Down another ridge line tip, stepping out to the right, east this time. The distant tree line south is the San Vicente River Just before the San Vicente River flows under the Bataan Express Way the river is dammed for irrigation. Another good shot of the San Vicente River and Mt. Samat, here it flow almost parallel to the Bataan Express Way. Because of the dam the river has a lot of water. Back on the Bataan Express way and heading north to enter the Gen Lim Road I see this jeep, it looks like the real thing. This jeep owner seems to run an intensive farm operation, there was a “Kim” in the name, was this a Korean operation? Just entered the Gen Lim Road and I’m heading west with the San Francisco Subdivision Gate and Mt. Samat dead ahead. The gate and the water tower was all that ever came out of the San Francisco Subdivision project along the Gen. Lim Road. . I tried to reach the San Vicente River again from the north but came across the Capot Creek, it is flowing into the San Vicente River, near by. I seen this bridge across the Capot Creek, it actually was pretty study, went up on the ridge and seen the San Vicente River Valley one more time, I was already too far west again. On my way back to my car on the Gen Lim. Road and I came across this idyllic scene, a family bathing along the road.
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Post by EXO on Nov 20, 2012 6:55:03 GMT 8
Beautiful work, Karl, beautiful, beautiful work!
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Post by sherwino on Nov 20, 2012 7:43:05 GMT 8
Hey, Karl. Bob Hudson and I were near that area that day. We passed by that jeep also which I always thought belongs to one of the guys here . Bob was inspecting the DM markers from Bagac to Pilar. He showed me the battle markers along the way and I was wishing to hike those battlefields. I said to him that Karl frequents these places. Hope you didn't bit your tongue then(as their superstition goes). Hope to meet you on the road one day.
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Post by Karl Welteke on Nov 20, 2012 9:39:34 GMT 8
Hello sherwino, one day I look you up at your home base, Mariveles EXO, thanks
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Post by Karl Welteke on Nov 15, 2014 19:31:57 GMT 8
BATTLE TRAILS SOUTH OF MOUNT SAMAT The Main Battle area around Mt. Samat is near Subic Bay, my residence. I love history because what I am, the reason I ended up here, the way I see the world is a direct result of WWII. So since I live here, I like to walk around history, I try to imagine how difficult it was for the soldiers to attack or defend over these different kinds of geographic situations. Also if one reads battle reports, and names of rivers or other geographic descriptions are given, one can understand it better. I have walked along the Bataan MLRs here and there but this time it is south of Mt. Samat, the Japanese managed to get around and over Mt. Samat and the battle continued here. This time I did not load up any albums to my sharing accounts. I take pictures of the geography to help me remember the walk but for most people it would be boring so I present only 3 maps or graphs and 8 small pictures. This walk was on Monday, the 10th Nov 2014, I walked already a 2nd time on the 13th Nov and on the 17th Nov. it will be another long walk in this area. Y570. I parked at the end of the concrete road going thru General Lim Village. The name of this village was Capot and that name is still on the WWII map. The road thru Gen. Lim Village and up to here, where I took this shot of Mt. Samat was the former WWII Trail #2. A little further up Trail #2 bends to the left (east) and Trail # 44 continues up on the ridge between the Pilar and San Vicente Rivers. The village Capot changed its name to General Lim who commanded here and beat off the Japanese at the Trail #2 Battle. He was murdered by the Japanese because he got arrested on his way to join Gen MacArthur in Australia. Y571. I have a Garmin GPS devise and upload my tracks to this, the Garmin Service and they generate this kind of image, graph of my walks. This graph is helpful to understand where I have been wandering around in the wilderness. I marked it so you can understand the geographic features in this image. Y572. This Google Earth image shows my GPS track, this day I had trouble with my batteries. Disregard that short straight line that is when my GPS device did not work. My track is shown correctly, I walked the same track up and down. Y573. This WWII graph came from the US Army publication “The Fall of the Philippines”. I marked in my track where I think I walked. Y574. I am looking back, this where my trail crossed the east arm of the Pilar River and went up the hills between the Pilar and Catmon Rivers. Y575. I came across this party of workers who were going uphill like me. They said they were on a tree planting detail and would stay in the hills about 4 days. The Aeta (we called them Negritos in our days) surprised me, based on my experience they seemed to be more common in Zambales. I was faster than them and I will meet them again. Y576. About 2 1/s hours into my walk I decided to call it quits here. In the distance we see the drain opening of the volcano Mariveles where the river Pantingan drains the caldera. The wooded area is the headwaters of the Catmon River and right is the Catmon River Valley. Across that valley on that ridge runs the former WWII Trail #29. Y557. We are looking towards the Mt. Natib complex; left runs the Catmon River valley. On the bottom of this river, along the river runs WWII Trail #6. Y558. We are looking at Mt. Samat from the south and we are looking across all the hills, ravines and valleys between the Catmon River at left and the Pilar River at right. Y559. I just started my return trip and I came across the same tree planting party but now the whole group is in the picture, besides the dog they also had a small horse someone was riding. Y560. I added this picture to show as a sample that there were a few trails branching off, this one would be running towards the bottom of the Catmon River and would connect to WWII Trails #6 or #429.
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Post by Karl Welteke on Nov 16, 2014 10:57:00 GMT 8
BATTLE TRAIL #44 SOUTH OF MOUNT SAMAT The Main Battle area around Mt. Samat is near Subic Bay, my residence. So since I live here, I like to walk around history, I try to imagine how difficult it was for the soldiers to attack or defend over these different kinds of geographic situations. Also if one reads battle reports, and names of rivers or other geographic descriptions are given, one can understand it better. Again this time I did not load up any pictures to my image sharing accounts. I present only 4 maps or graphs and 10 small pictures to this forum. This walk was on Thursday, the 13th Nov 2014 and on the 17th Nov. it will be another long walk in this area. Y587. Again I parked at the end of the concrete road going thru General Lim Village. The name of this village was Capot and that name is still on the WWII map. The road thru Gen. Lim Village was the former WWII Trail #2. A little further up Trail #2 bends to the left (east) and Trail # 44 continues up on the ridge between the Pilar and San Vicente Rivers. Today I followed Trail #44 that is how it looks much of the way Y588. This WWII graph came from the US Army publication “The Fall of the Philippines”. I marked in my track where I think I walked. Y589. Not bad for an old man, 18.5 clicks and 700 meter ascend. I have a Garmin GPS devise and upload my tracks to this, the Garmin Service and they generate this kind of image, graph of my walks. This graph is helpful to understand where I have been wandering around in the wilderness. I marked it so you can understand the geographic features in this image. Y590. This Google Earth image shows my GPS tracks for this walk and the last one. It is marked up so you can understand the geographic features in this image. Y591. My elevation graph for this walk, not bad! Y592. Much of the walk in the beginning I had the main San Vicente River in view to my left. The San Vicente River Valley has a low ridge in the middle of the valley so it is wide. On the opposite banks are some houses that makes me think, that a drivable road goes up further than where I started today with Trail #2. On my next walk I will start there. Just before the total collapse of the Phil-US Forces they tried to reestablish a new line along on top of the ridge on the opposite side but to no avail. Y593. We are looking back and we see that I descended from the Trail #44 ridge, crossed the east arm of the Pilar River and I’m ascending again. I followed the trail and at this moment I cannot tell whether the WWII Trail #44 continued on that ridge. But I am following a trail in the general direction towards Mt. Mariveles. Y594. This is the trail I am following in the general direction towards Mt. Mariveles. I just crossed the main east arm of the Pilar River and I am ascending up to the next ridge. People were living in the valley here, maybe 4 families. Y595. Came across this hard working Filipino, he said it was Palay, rice not milled yet. As I said some people were ling in that valley below. Below is the east arm of the Pilar River which I just crossed from east to west. I remember some rice fields further west and closer to Mt. Samat from ever earlier walks in this area. Y596. I am looking back again; I just crossed that far ridge and a small water run, a tributary to the Pilar River. That good size water hose is a common way many Philippine communities get there drinking water. I wonder does this hose run all the way to Gen. Lim Village? Y597. I thought I show this picture because it demonstrates the distance I have been walking. Left is Mt. Samat of course and where I marked the large chicken farm structures (I believe an SM operation, by the way) left of it in Gen. Lim Vlle I parked the car. Y598. This is a head water of a tributary to the Catmon River, an Aeta couple lived there. The trail went passed it but then went down about 120 meter elevation and quit. That’s when I quit also because I failed to find a good trail connecting to WWII trail #29. A lot of logging is going on here also. Y599. The Aeta couple, when I returned from that false trail about a little more of 120 meters down I returned here. They had running water nearby, they, another elderly Aeta and I had lunch here I shared my cookies with them. Then my return march started, if you looked at the GPS track you will see that I found another trail near the end and followed it. Y600. This image is from descending down the false trail. You can see that logging has thinned this forest. The elderly Aeta lived here and joined us later at lunch. Both men later offered to guide me on the right path to connect me to the WWII Trail #29. But I already made my decision to call it a day and return to the car at Gen Lim. Ville. Note: If you are interested in reading up on the Battle, this is the URL for the “Fall of the Philippines”, chapter 23 to 26: www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/USA-P-PI/
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