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Post by okla on Nov 18, 2011 7:55:19 GMT 8
Hey xray....I agree 100 percent. You have put it about as accurately and in context as, I think, possible. It is a sensitive subject when viewed after all these years, but one thing cannot be denied, in my humble. To this day, many Japanese, especially in high places, have never really apologized or taken any kind of responsibility for atrocities of the most vicious kind. Nanking, Manila, POW torture, murder, medical experiments, comfort girls to name several and some Japanese, to this day, will not or are reluctant to acknowledge any of these crimes against humanity. Now, having said all this, I, in my limited time spent in Japan. got along in splendid fashion with all Japanese that I came in contact with, although I must admit that I never met a World War Two Japanese Veteran who fought against the Western Allies,( Yanks, Brits, Aussies, Dutch,etc). It was always duty against the Russians in Manchuria or occupation duty in Formosa. Cheers.
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Post by xray on Nov 18, 2011 11:41:35 GMT 8
Myself, I feel in a limited position to judge any from that generation. The trials they went through are all but unimaginable, as are the things they saw and did. But for the grace of god, it could have been any one of us as well. Time and circumstances thrust them all into situations that they themselves could scarcely have imagined just months before they happened. Having said that, I feel the pain my ancestors went through, through the generations. I recognize their suffering, and greatly appreciate their sacrifices. In particular, the Philippine garrison, which fought courageously, for months on end, against hopeless odds. No hope of relief, no possibility of victory. Thank goodness, things would never get any darker for US forces. It was their lot to be sacrificed, simply to gain a few more days and weeks of time against the relentless, well disciplined foe. The higher command knew it, the lower echelons sensed it - There would be no succor, no miracle convoy, no fleet of aircraft and ships to turn the tables. That would be years in the making, all that lay in front of them was a bottomless, disease infested black pit. The largest surrender to an external enemy of US forces in history. Very dark times indeed, and I think alot of folks overlook, or don't want to look, at this sad start of the war. Everyone knows Iwo, Midway, Guadalcanal ect. They were smashing victories, on the road to total victory. A dark cloud still hangs over our ill fated garrison in the Philippines, and the outcome there, obviously, was not of their making, nor was it from any lack of sacrifice, fighting spirit or commitment. The wonder is, is that they held out for so long, even as other famous, long established garrisons in the region fell in short order. I give my grudging respect to the martial spirit of my ancestors enemies, but I will not hypocritically glorify their honor, or overlook the brutal, domineering system which they fought for, as if it never happened. I sure as hell will not say any prayer for their memory either. I am glad they died when they did, and I am glad that they lost the war.
As for apologies, I really think they are not in order. Japanese have paid dearly for their transgressions against peace, and have shown themselves to be stalwart allies and a highly industrious race. I don't think the Germans have any need to apologies for Nazis, I don't think the US has need to apologize for dropping an atomic bomb on Japan. Once you go down that road, its a slippery slope, and people will then demand compensation ect, I don't think thats appropriate.
Sorry for straying off topic, obviously this topic is more than capable of generating emotion, even many decades after the events.
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Post by okla on Nov 18, 2011 23:27:50 GMT 8
Hey Xray....Very well said. You mention our Luzon Force fighting on, knowing that help was probably not coming, leaves one with a very gloomy view of that whole early WW 2 period. Sometime way back in college/USAF/etc I heard or read that when Genl Percival, the Singapore Commander, gently broached the subject of capitulation to White Hall, Mister Churchill, admonished him, saying something like, "how can you even consider surrender when the American and Filipinos are still holding out against the Japanese on Bataan and Corregidor. This would have to have been in February 1942, just prior to the British running up the white flag. Our guys stuck it out till early April on the peninsula and, or course, the "Rock" checked it in a month later. The "Lexington Task Force", so hopefully dreamed about by our starving guys, never sailed around the Cavite headlands. An old Master Sergeant, veteran of the Death March, once told me while we were both serving in Korea in 1952, that many mornings at dawn, he and many others would look out toward Corregidor, hoping to see strange vessels, signifying some relief had arrived. What a dismal, dreary, period of time that was. I remember it very well, especially having a morning paper route and being exposed to those headlines reporting nothing, but bad news, day after day. "Wake Island Falls, Japs push into Burma, Singapore Falls, Prince of Wales and Repulse Sunk, and on and on. I have stated on this forum in the past that when Bataan and Corregidor surrendered, I could not believe it. How could we be beaten by a bunch of little Japanese? Thing is, there were millions of adult Americans asking the same question. I was an idealistic kid of 9/10 years of age. Those little Japanese were proving to be a fanatical, resourceful, brutal enemy. All this has prompted me to re-read "Midway", where there is a happy resolution. Cheers.
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Post by xray on Nov 19, 2011 4:34:02 GMT 8
Very true okla. Reading history as opposed to living it, we have the luxury of skipping to the uplifting chapters, and skipping the dark, gloomy ones. Iwo for instance. We obviously suffered horrendous casualties on that lump of volcanic rock, and many at the time must have wondered if it was worth it. Yet there is a positive historical glow which surrounds the battle, simply because it ended as a smashing defeat for Japan. The opposite seems to be true for our Philippine garrison, and thats a shame, because in many ways, though the final outcome was a near complete Japanese victory, there is much to be learned about true courage, about fighting for weeks and months at a time against so much adversity, and about what the human spirit alone can do against insurmountable odds. People like you, who have a living memory of those dark times, must have been horrified with the fall of The Rock ... But events moved so quick after GuadalCanal and Stalingrad, the tide was turned, and victory after victory was achieved. Most people, including historians, put the dark early days out of their minds, and perhaps naturally, concentrated on better times. Savo Island got the same treatment. I have run into quite a few guys really up on warfare, who have never heard of the naval smashing we took there, 2nd only to Pearl Harbor in damages done. Its not fair okla, but natural. Humans tend to concentrate on the positive, and squelch the negative ,,, And it did not get any more negative for American forces than that first half year of the war.
I have read Churchills authoritative memoirs of WW2 quite a few times, great reading. He was indeed horrified at events in "Fortress Singapore", and was very conscious that the US Philippine garrison fighting on and on, vs the British garrison folding up rather quickly, did not look too good for them. He was actually taken by surprise that the defenses on this vaunted fortress were so lacking ,,, And like MacArthur was to do, he fruitlessly ordered attack, no surrender at all costs, defense to the last man and last bullet, ect Obviously didn't work out too well, and anyone that has read Bunkers book knows full well the disdain the Philippine garrison had for the British, who saw them as soft, skittish, prone to run, and having others fight their battles for them. Harsh judgements, for harsh times.
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Post by okla on Nov 19, 2011 5:19:35 GMT 8
Hey Xray....I truly intend to re-read the Midway book, but I will ultimately return to material pertaining to that horrific first six months of 1942. Maybe there is a quirk in my study of history. I have always been attracted to "lost causes",etc. I think I have probably read everything that pertained to the Philippine Campaign of 1942, The Singapore fiasco, Wake Island, the futile Naval "shootouts" in the Netherlands East Indies, Hong Kong, Pearl Harbor. Heck, every time I go thru "We Slept at Dawn" I am probably subconsciously still hoping Lt Tyler will take the Radar Operators seriously or the folks at Naval Ops put credence in the USS Ward's reports of the Submarine activity off the mouth of Pearl. "Woulda, coulda, shoulda", strikes again. Nice talking to you. Cheers.
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Post by batteryboy on Jan 31, 2012 9:04:22 GMT 8
Currently doing the Mindanao airrfields and here is a nice shot of Sasa and Matina AFs in 1944. (Davao No. 1 and No. 2) Sasa is now the Francisco Bangoy International Airport while Matina is near the present day SM Matina. Its now part of a residential area.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2013 7:13:13 GMT 8
hello batteryboy, i am an architecture atudent researching on reused airfields/facilities in the Philippines. just like what u have posted about the Nielson Airfield tower reused as a library. Do you know any other airport facilities that were reused? thank you
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Post by Bob Hudson on Feb 28, 2013 18:30:34 GMT 8
Stark contrast with this memorial here in the Philippines when the Japanese fought tooth and nail to stop the inclusion of the Enola Gay in the Smithsonian several years ago. I for one have no interest in seeing the memorial. If I were to go there, use your imagination as to what Offering I would leave.
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Post by dmether on Mar 1, 2013 1:07:48 GMT 8
It wasn't just the Japanese government that wanted to influence the Enola Gay display, the Smithsonian historians and director went to the Hiroshima and Nagasaki mayors and asked for their input for the display. It was the American Legion that forced the Smithsonian to change the display that would have shown the US as aggressors in the war and Japan as the victim.
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Post by Bob Hudson on Mar 1, 2013 6:34:28 GMT 8
Yes, I heard about that too. There is a "Friendship Tower" in Bagac with a big bronze bell at its base that you can ring. Placed there by by the Japanese. I like it and have no problem with it but a memorial to Japanese Kamikaze pilots? Can we put up a memorial to Col. Paul Tibbets and his crew in Hiroshima?
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