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Post by Bob Hudson on Aug 12, 2012 15:51:08 GMT 8
In the mid to late forties, there were parades in numerous cities to commemorate the Bataan and Corregidor men and signs like the one in this photo led many to believe that Corregidor veterans were on the March. Attachments:
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Post by JohnEakin on Aug 13, 2012 1:39:29 GMT 8
I think there was another thread recently that touched on this issue. Bottom line is many men from Corregidor units were on Bataan. (By the same token, many men escaped from Bataan to Corregidor.) I have a family member who was on Bataan and at O'Donnell (he died at Cabanatuan), but I found a record that at the surrender he was commandeered by the Japanese as a driver. I guess he doesn't count because he didn't walk.
And just this weekend I received an email from a POW family member which discussed this very issue and the rift in the ADBC which became the BBB. It is still a sore point with many people.
Hardly a day goes by that I don't find a reference to some other atrocity - beatings, torture, murder, you name it - and they were certainly not confined to the DM. Granted, the guys who surrendered on Corregidor were in much better shape when they arrived at Cabanatuan and the death rate was much lower for them than those who passed through O'Donnell. But there's no doubt in my mind that they all didn't endure suffering beyond my comprehension.
Sometimes, knowing what came later, I think to myself that the guys who died on the DM were the lucky ones.
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Post by okla on Aug 13, 2012 3:34:48 GMT 8
Hey John....There are so many strange stories that came out of the Death March,etc. I have posted on this forum, as you probably have read, about my niece in law's Grandfather (Company G and H, 31st Inf Regt US, who was taken prisoner in one of the Hospitals on Bataan and missed the DM, but nobody in the family knows how he left Bataan. Was a POW at Cabanatuan and was at Bilibid in early 1945 when liberated. I have also posted a story about the American POW who made the march out of Bataan twice. How about that???. After the first trudge he was chosen to drive a Japanese truck back down to Mariveles where he once again joined another group that was marching North. After that trek he went into ODonnell, but survived the War. These stories just keep coming. There are reports that some groups marched to Balanga and then got to ride the rest of the way. A smaller number rode all the way, but the majority made the March all the way to San Fernando on foot. As you say, the Corregidor POWs were in better shape and therefore had a better surivival rate. Whatever the circumstances, it sure as He11 was no picnic, even for those who were trucked all the way. There was still the years behind the wire, Hell Ships, slave labor, etc awaiting these men. It is said that no Japanese automobiles are to be seen at any Bataan/Corregidor reunion parking lots.All Fords and Chevys, I suppose and who can blame these guys for boycotting Japanese vehicles. Cheers.
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Post by Bob Hudson on Aug 13, 2012 4:36:38 GMT 8
John & Okla,
I stated in another post to okla that each pow suffered the loss of freedom equally. To measure suffering is an impossibility. One can only go by statistics and measure loss. Within six months of capitulation on Bataan, 50% of Bataan men were dead. As bad as the DM was with 700 Americans dead, more than twice that many died at Camp O'Donnell, not to mention that Filipino losses on the DM were around 10,000 and 22,000 died at O'Donnell in six weeks. These were all Bataan men. At Cabanatuan there were 2,656 deaths, 2,399 of which were Bataan veterans. I believe the BBB broke off from the ADBC for two reasons. One, was the fact that the Quan was publishing stories without any fact finding or common sense such as this Frazier guy who was a pow who supposedly snuck out of Cabanatuan at night and was murdering Japanese guards at night and then sneaking in again. Most guys hardly had the energy to make it to the latrine.
Secondly I believe that because their losses were so severe, they didn't want to get lumped into the larger picture. They wanted to be recognized separately. You can apply this reasoning to the pow's who were on the Oryoku Maru compared to lets say, the Nissyo Maru which my father was on. Both Hellships had the same number of pow's aboard and although the conditions aboard each Hellship were equally bad, one cannot argue that those aboard the Oryoku Maru suffered greater losses. If one were to discuss Hellships, one couldn't lump them together and say each Hellship was terrible and leave at that. The Arisan Maru had eight survivors out of 1,800 and the Shinyo Maru, eighty two out of 750 survived. One must acknowledge that the Oryoku, Arisan and Shinyo Marus stand out over the rest for the tremendous losses.
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Post by wwalker on Aug 13, 2012 5:36:28 GMT 8
I agree John, there is no doubt that those men on Corregidor and the other islands of Manila Bay suffered terribly, as did those on Bataan and the subsequent Death March. The soldiers of Bataan were taken prisoner almost a full month before those on Corregidor. I often wonder why there are instances in which there developed a sort of animosity between these two survivor groups of Bataan and Corregidor. The garrison on Bataan had it worse in the beginning, but it was overall not very different by any means, in my opinion. And that is looking at these stories as a whole. I myself find it hard to make a solid judgement between the two, having never experienced remotely anything close to what those men did. All I have to judge on is what veterans tell me, and accounts that I've read.
The explanation of why there was confusion as to who was on the Death March is a combination of things. The biggest explanation being that most of the American people did not fully understand what transpired in the Philippines. Many of these men never came home to tell their stories, and families were left with scant, if any information. The Death March was publicized quite abit after Dyess wrote his story. I think that many people erroneously assumed if someone was captured in the Philippines, that they made this march.
When both the Bataan Group and the Corregidor Group met at Cabanatuan, their stories intertwined from that point on. The rest of their imprisonment was spent together. This fact may have also led people to believe that they were all together from the beginning.
After the Corregidor POW's made it ashore in Manila they were marched down Dewey Boulevard as a "victory parade" for the Japanese. I think that this occurence has been confused by some people as a Death March. People sometimes jump to conclusions before they have the whole story.
Once errors like this are published it makes it even harder to persuade people otherwise. But if you talk to any of these veterans, they will readily explain it. And I'm sure there were some instances where survivors lied or exagerated. Everyone expected that if you were captured in the Philippines that you must have been on the Death March. Most people knew about the DM, as the Dyess story was widely published in newspapers all over America in the years of 1944 and 45. It could be said that many people knew about the Death March, and very few knew the details of the surrender on Corregidor at that time.
WW
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Post by JohnEakin on Aug 13, 2012 6:05:01 GMT 8
I know what you all are saying, I just think it is unfortunate that some of the POWs got in to a urination contest over who had it the worst.
I wasn't aware that the Cabanatuan death rate was that lopsided toward Bataan. I don't doubt it and it really puts O'Donnell in context.
FWIW, there were a few more deaths at Cabanatuan than were recorded in the burial records. I have a cemetery map that shows additional graves on both sides of the camp plus a few more isolated graves in the general area. I'm working on a roster of these non-cemetery deaths and would appreciate a heads up when you come across these stories.
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Post by wwalker on Aug 13, 2012 6:54:06 GMT 8
To me it is sad that these hard feelings occurred, and I'm sure these feelings are still alive today. The aspect of this story that lingers in my mind is that there are thousands of stories that were never told. Thousands of occurences that have not been published or told. Most of these men came back and never spoke about it, and if they did it was brief. I've also learned that many of the ex-POW's avoided the organizations of the ADBC and BBB, and some of them did so because of emphasization that the Bataan guys had it much more worse than those on Corregidor. Understandably, this could be taken as downright insulting for someone that actually lived this hell. I think alot of the hard feelings were created in the fact that Corregidor had more food than those on Bataan. However, this was an issue that was a choice of those in the upper command, and not that of the majority, which were the enlisted men.
There are groups of men that endured major atrocities after the surrender of the fortified islands. The prisoners at Fort Drum and Frank were even dealt with differently than those on Corregidor, at least at the beginning. There are so many variables(hellships, Death March, etc.) that play into this story, but they are all the story of starvation, beatings, humiliation, executions, slave labor, torture etc. But what the stories all have in common is their fight and struggle for survival.
I've spoken with Bataan veterans as well as Corregidor veterans, and they all have the same sadness when recalling those days. Most prefer not to talk about their time as a POW.
WW
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Post by Bob Hudson on Aug 13, 2012 9:07:54 GMT 8
My father never had an unkind word for the men on Corregidor. I do remember him saying that he would rather take his chances on Bataan than been holed up on Corregidor with nowhere to go or hide from that barrage. He could see from Cabcaben that Corregidor was almost completely denuded. The old adage of "shooting fish in a barrel" may have from the Philippines because I remember in some of my fathers writings, he used the term referring to Corregidor. Unfortunately some of his writings were lost over the years and moves.
Bob
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Post by wwalker on Aug 13, 2012 9:42:35 GMT 8
Hello Bob,
I'm fascinated by the whole story of Bataan and Corregidor. I enjoy learning anything that I can about the Philippine Campaign & POW experience, and I admire your research. Although I've done periodic research on the subject for 10 years, only in the past couple of years have I started serious research. So I have much to learn.
When I began research on my grandfather back in 99', I was one of the culprits that believed he was on the Death March (even though he was on Corregidor). He died when my father was three, so our family didn't know much of anything about his wartime experience. It wasn't until I was in touch with BBB member Richard Gordon that I was steered the right direction. With the help of him and Al McGrew I learned that my grandfather was in Battery H of the 59th Coast Artillery, on Corregidor. I am greatful for the help of Mr. Gordon and Mr. McGrew as they were able to give me all this information in something like a week. So it did not take me long to figure this error out.
WW
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2012 9:21:50 GMT 8
This is my first post and I was wondering if anyone could please help me. Our family has never known where my grandfather, LTC Welborn G. McMurray, USAFFE, was taken prisoner. He died a POW in Cabanatuan prison camp on June 14, 1942. The question we have is whether he made it from Manila (stationed at Nielson Field) to the Bataan Peninsula and then to Corregidor, direct to Corregidor, or whether he participated in the Bataan Death March to Cabanatuan prison camp. He was in pretty good shape for 56 YO, but still it would have been very difficult for him.. I made the tour of Corregidor this past Friday and you can see how very close Bataan would be by boat. Through your website participants, do you believe anyone could please answer this age old family question? Do you have a list of the captured POWs from Corregidor?
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