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Post by okla on Apr 21, 2013 23:17:57 GMT 8
Hi Pei Yu....I can't disagree with you on any points you make. My only point is the magnitude of the German master plan to liquidate every Jew that came under their control, man, woman and child, i.e. a certain segment of the Singapore Chinese community was executed while others were not. When the Nazis swooped into a city,etc no segments of the Jewish population was exempt. All would perish under the Nazi plan, either in the cremation ovens or from starvation or slave labor. None were to be spared. The Japanese seemed to be more selective in who they deemed worthy of receiving the fruits of the "East Asia Co-prosperity Sphere", if you get my drift. By the way, I am not of Jewish extraction so I feel that I am viewing this conversation with, hopefully, an unbiased eye. I, like you, feel that too many former Japanese big wigs, from that period, escaped the hangman's noose due to the international political climate prevailing in 1945/46. I remember well, although I was only in my early teens at the time of Japan's surrender, the clamor by, probably, the majority of the American population, screaming for Japanese Emperor's head on a platter, but the prevailing thought, if memory serves was by sparing him no bloody invasion (didn't we only have a couple of A-Bombs left in our arsenal???) would take place and the subsequent occupation would be accomplished in a much smoother manner. As I previously stated, I have no argument with anything you have stated. Cheers.
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Post by Pei Yu on Apr 22, 2013 2:33:17 GMT 8
The atrocities in Nanking and Manila spared women and children. Even Jewish refugees to the Philippines validate the impalement of babies and women. And was there not a command order found about executing Manila citizens? Let us also be reminded the repeated abduction of Asian women to be brought to Japanese brothels.
The only difference I see is that the Japanese had a wider scope of who was inferior-someone who is not "Yamato race". Similar to the German concept of "Aryan". Besides, a lot of Gypsys too were killed by the Germans because they were not Aryans.
Besides the co prosperity sphere is nothing but psychological warfare. Even Thailand who was a Japanese "ally" did not benefit. As a matter if fact, there were anti Japanese guerilla and the Siamese representative to the US refused go deliver the Siamsese declaration of war.
Only Japan was to benefit from that.That was just a propaganda line to "convince" Asian nations occupied by Western powers to go collaborate with them. It was a propaganda line for systematic looting, not sharing.
Which Asian nation favorably see and actually received the fruit of the "co prosperity sphere"? Not Taiwan, not Korea, not the Philippines,not Thailand, not French Indochina, not even Indonesia that partially collaborated(mostly to expel the Dutch).
You see, the Japanese even killed the family of the most anti american and pro japanese philipino - artemio ricarte who lived in japan for a long time Nd even wanted to model the philippines from japan
Everything that Japan did was charade to advance their own interest. It wasnt for co prosperity, it was for domination.
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Post by okla on Apr 22, 2013 3:06:54 GMT 8
Pei Yu....Again, I say that I don't argue your very valid points. I am only pointing out, again, the scope of the German "final solution". Never, in modern Western Civilization has a so comprehensive project been thrown into being, down to even the design of the Crematory ovens,etc. Sure, others beside Jews found their way into the Death Camps, but the main target was each and every Jew and a whole, systematic and administered mechanism, 110 percent organized and approved by the reigning government, was thrown into this endeavor. It was quite efficient at what it did, while in operation, and that was the herculean attempt to eliminate an entire ethinc portion of the European population. As brutal and cruel as was the Japanese behavior toward their vanquished foes, I don't believe they ever envisioned genocide as an official policy of their Asian "new order". That's just my view and I am sure it has many flaws or holes in it, but I rest my case. I claim to be no authority on any of this, but am just presenting my view. This might be a case, to some folks, of comparing apples to oranges and if so, the apple, in my humble opinion, over shadows the orange. Nice talking to you.
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Post by EXO on Apr 22, 2013 6:42:15 GMT 8
Please consider and assist me with my theory as to the comparative evils committed in Europe in the name of ethnic cleansing, and in Asia in the name of liberation from colonial oppression. There's more than one means of dressing up evil, it wears many fashionable coats. I think the solution may rely in trying to distill our debate to what is common between them, rather than what is different. In both I see the primacy of the State - a government grown so big, so absolutely vast, strong and powerful within its regions, that the individual who perpetrated the crimes on its behalf was considered to be protected by the State. In Europe, the acts were conducted under the authority of the functionaries of the Nazi Party, in compliance with written policy. In Asia, the acts were conducted under the authority of the military factions, each faction claiming that their conduct was more greatly in compliance with the desires of the Emperor. Both of them considered that, as between the state and the individual, the ends justified the means, and that they would be protected from criminality by the State. Postwar and to the present, it is to the credit of the German people, I believe, that they have recognized this philosophy as heretic, and evil. With respect to some very powerful influences within the Japanese Government, I am not so sure. I believe that the Japanese knee-jerk concealment of the crimes committed against humanity during the war was a selfish reaction by those who had encouraged and participated in the excesses, and that they have never allowed the entirety of the Japanese people to be fully informed about what they ordered to be done in their Emperor's name. So, in that respect, I believe that there is a necessity to re-examine - and strengthen - the concepts of Command Responsibility that were expounded in the Yamashita Principle. For this reason, I have tried to gather together articles which support the strength and certainty of the manner in which individual moral certainty must take precedence, and moral responsibility its primacy. (These are at " Battle of Manila" and of the collection, I prefer Maj. William S. Parks' paper " Command Responsibility for War Crimes." My advice is that you don't skip the Introduction, and perhaps read it over three sessions.) I am disturbed by the manner in which international geopolitics is being played, where various States are beating the drums, once again, that the ends justify whatever means are available. This is a cloak of evil, the same fashionable coat worn by the Nazi Party, the SS, the Gestapo, and by the Japanese Warrior Class by all its known faction names. The phrase "Yamashita's Ghost" has an undeniable marketing cachet, and compels us to focus on the fate of one worthless man. It would have been better to start with the concept of " One Hundred Thousand Ghosts." Now, that would have taken some well needed chutzpah.
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Post by Pei Yu on Apr 22, 2013 15:58:29 GMT 8
"As brutal and cruel as was the Japanese behavior toward their vanquished foes, I don't believe they ever envisioned genocide as an official policy of their Asian "new order"
You must be kidding right? Point one: over throw western powers in their colonies. New Order. Point two: Be the Master race. Even native Okinawans, Burakumins and Ainus are not seen as equals. What more with non citizens of Japan?
Just because the Japanese did not have the luxury to historically have "ovens for humans" makes their crime less of a "holocost"? We have to think here of the SYSTEMATIC killing of non-Japanese civilians and POWs. In the case of Manila, the whole city was made into an oven. And how people there were machine gunned. And for all the irony, even Nazi Germany was so concerned on what the Japanese did in Nanking to the Chinese civilians that they even evacuated some German Jews.
I do not mean to say that the Japanese crimes were worse than that of Germany but rather I am equating it as it is just as horrible. While the Germans have their ovens, the Japanese have their "killing sport" -- behearding, throwing babies in the air and then catching them with a bayonet. From China to Korea to the Philippines to the Pacific islands, you hear the same stories... which makes me think and theorize that if these actions were not highly tolerated among ranks, it was shown "by example" by the higher authorities. Unrelated people who never met each other have the same tragedy story to say. It's as if these atrocities are military culture rather than "random acts" by individuals.
Which leads me to another point: we cannot dismiss that there was not a widespread systematic and state sponsored atrocities by the Japanese especially that they, unlike the Germans, have tried to destroy documents right away (which is aided by their lack of documentation in the first place) and that the meager documents that survive indicate that a lot of atrocities towards non-Japanese civilians and POWs were "state-ordered". And in the case of Unit 731, there is an allegation that the US Government took the data in exchange of sparing the ones involved (and many testimonies) So is a state sponsored human experimentation less worse than sending a lot of people to a "human oven"?
EXO,
I do agree with you that Germany deserves an accolade for coming to its terms with its brutal past, condemning holocost deniers, having a memorial to the holocost victims, etc. Germany is, in my eyes, the "antithesis of Japan"(or rather otherwise). Germany has done what Japan REFUSED to do, collectively. Of course there are individual sincere apologies and I commend these Japanese but we have yet to see the Japanese government itself come to terms. A lot still claims that they were merely liberating Asia (yeah right, the Japanese occupation drove Philippinos to its pro-American climax!), that the post war trial were unfair, and that the atrocities never happened.
I think there are two big factors that gives Japan the guts to deny their atrocities despite the documentation and evidences.
One is the concept of saving face. Asians, particularly East Asians do not like to appear "bad" especially if this involves people from the elite. Lying in Asia, depending on circumstance, is not only tolerated but also accepted esp if lying entails saving face. It's unlike in the Western world where people would prefer a nasty truth over a beautiful lie.
The second factor that I see is the US and basically the Wests' complacency especially following the occupation of Japan. I do not wish to bash the US or sound anti-American but I believe that the US' good intention of transforming Japan as well as protecting it from communism (which would probably make Asia a lot more messier had the communist held ground in Japan) has its unintended consequences, and that these consequences are still making international relationships volatile. What do you think would happen if the US government pressures Japan to admit its war crimes, remove Yasukini Shrine and criminalize denial of Nanking, Manila, POW and internees treatment?
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Post by Bob Hudson on Apr 22, 2013 16:44:42 GMT 8
This movie should make him look bad. The great Tiger of Malaya who commanded men who disobeyed him from Singapore to the Philippines and a general who had no clue what was happening around him. Yamashita like the Emperor as well as the Japanese populace if nothing else shared in the moral responsibility and moral guilt of the atrocities. Yamashita being the closest to the fire got burned as well he should of. My opinion of course.
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Post by okla on Apr 23, 2013 1:46:42 GMT 8
Hey EXO....No I wasn't kidding. I repeat, my only point in this whole discussion was to show how the Germans effort to subjugate a continent and exterminate an entire race, was so well organized and executed on such a massive scale, down to and including tatooing registration/serial numbers on the arms of the victims,etc. This was the only point I was making. In other words, I tried to demonstrate that what we might describe as the well documented, superior "German Engineering" was put to use in the massive, criminal project. I will now yield to your superior expertise and return to my usual status as "observer". Cheers.
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Post by Pei Yu on Apr 23, 2013 5:39:58 GMT 8
It wasn't just the Jews that the Germans tried to "get rid of", the disabled, the Romanis and the Gypsys. No disrespect to the Jews, but other non-Jewish, non-Aryans too were incarcerated.
The Germans wanted to "purify" their "race". The Japanese wanted to remain "pure" was well and have non-Japanese Asians serve under them, and if you don't you're persecuted or killed and humiliate Westerners
Different styles, same magnitude.
---
Back to the topic. I think such move by revisionists emboldens the Japanese to further deny their atrocities and eventually shift the blame to the West, the US in particular. It's very scary. This is why, even I, as an American "minority", refuse to submit to unwarranted political correctness.
While I am no admirer of MacArthur, the revisionist blaming him for Manila Massacre is rather laughable and a "Japanese excuse". Is it MacArthur's fault that the Japanese has a premeditated mass killing of civilians? I think these revisionists are forgetting that at that time, the Philippines was still US territory and it is the responsibility of the US too flush out the Japanese there especially that the local populace is largely supportive of the US.
And in such a repetitive organized atrocities, command responsibility should prevail. The atrocities had happened not once, not twice many times under the noses of these people and the revisionists scream "they had no idea, they did not order it"? As I pointed out earlier, lying isn't seen as bad as it is in Western culture. Saving face is more important than telling the truth. So naturally, these people will lie to attempt to save their asses.
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Post by EXO on Apr 23, 2013 7:00:04 GMT 8
My sincere apologies if you feel that I was responding directly or indirectly against your earlier point, Okla. I greatly value your input, You are a breath of mid-western clarity. There is a lot going on behind the scenes of this thread, and what is appearing here is only as much as I am able to keep up with. When I made my most recent comments, I wasn't having your comment in mind, but an opening statement by another correspondent (off-board) that "Truth is relative." I will post what I replied to him (because it addresses what this thread is about - our opposition to revisionist historians peddling ideological positions and willing to ignore key facts which are inconvenient to their arguments: At any rate, what you have said does give me pause to think about that phrase, "The Banality of Evil". It was composed within the context of explaining the Adolf Eichmann's bureaucratic manner of organizing the holocaust, describing how normal people become swayed by evil ideology. I will quote from Hanna Arendt (courtesy Wikipedia) because somehow, it seems to tie in with what I quoted above: I was (and am still) trying to adapt that concept, clearly developed with the Holocaust in mind, to the circumstance of the bushido spirit which the Japanese Milirary spread throughout every part of Asia through their military discipline. It seems to me that their training of their troops to accept violent discipline, and to become callous, reduced human sanity to bestial levels. The samurai ideology blinded them. What makes, for me, the Japanese experience of WWII all the more evil (than it already was) is the seeming willingness of many in power NOT to take any steps to redress it, and to deny it occurred as alleged, or at all. They may have burned their incriminating documents, but they have not printed retractions in their school books. That means, deep down, really deep down, there's still a germ of it existing. That scares me. Sometimes Wikipedia can come up with a pearl, and in this context, it's this, which expresses why it is that I distrust the banal evils of even today's governments:- Eichmann was blindly following orders; but ideology was what made him blind. How many of those scary people have we met in government this week? It gives me pause to think that their evil is all the more so, because they are so matter-of-factly banal that they have power over us, and no discretion other than to keep us firmly under them.
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Post by Pei Yu on Apr 24, 2013 4:15:12 GMT 8
I have a curious question. From the documentaries and news clips I have seen as well as some Hollywood movies, I am getting the impression that the Philippines was still largely in the "radar" of a lot of Americans. There has been movies about the guerilla activities in the Philippines as well as Bataan. And the the US had a documentary about the Battle of Manila in 1959... but then, it all faded away. I wonder why? I saw newspaper clippings reporting the destruction of Manila in US Newspapers and that it was ordered from Tokyo....
I hope someone can shed the light what went on that even in the Philippines, the Battle of Manila is forgotten. Bataan is largely forgotten among Americans, what more with the Battle of Manila. Was it largely due to Cold War politics that succeeded the war?
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