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Post by fots2 on Oct 31, 2010 11:45:57 GMT 8
Great photos there Chad including the 1986 ones. I do not have photos taken from Malinta West entrance (ground level) but here are two taken from higher up Malinta Hill. Unfortunately they do not show the view further to the north. (photo was taken by Paul Cornwall in either 1940 or 1941). I was surprised to see how extensive the Stockade was plus all the buildings in the area. That sure explains why you see concrete foundations everywhere you walk these days. After a few Red Horses, you guys will be seeing Japanese soldiers around every corner!!!
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Post by chadhill on Oct 31, 2010 19:11:01 GMT 8
Great job, fots! Unfortunately, my employer is calling me...I need more time to study the buildings but here is a possible match: Original tank photo. Enlarged portion: Your photo: Chopped portion: The long building with the "porch" on the end could be a match. Both photos seem to show the adjacent building that butts up next to it at a 90 degree angle. Again, nice job fots. I'll be out a bit-
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Post by fots2 on Oct 31, 2010 19:37:23 GMT 8
Hi Chad,
You could have a match there. The contour of the road and the hillside looks correct to me also. Nice photo.
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Post by chadhill on Nov 5, 2010 6:58:52 GMT 8
Yes, Fots, I agree. The contours of the road and hillside look correct. The buildings seem to point in the right direction, too. Although less clear and harder to see in the tank photo, there is another building on the left side of the road junction that seems to face in the right direction with a similar roof in these three photos. Cropped portion of your photo: Same building, but from your other photo: Enlarged portion of tank photo, with the building on the left of the road (note vehicle or trolley car in road): One more view of the buildings in question: ********** The tank that is partially shown on the left side of the tank photo is the M3 Stuart. Here is a closeup of the rear carriage: Here is a print of an M3 rear carriage: For comparison, here is the Type 97 Chi-Ha: ********** The other tank picture from "Philippine Expeditionary Force", of the Type 97 Chi-Ha, has Japanese letters on the lefthand side of the photo: I have looked closely at the original book photo and can't tell whether the letters are on an actual sign, or dubbed in. However, we sent it to a friend of my daughter who is an exchange student in Japan. She said it roughly translates "seized motor vehicles returned and accepted". Okla, is that a doughboy helmet laying on the left side of the bank below what may be a rifle? ********** While reflecting on these photos it struck me that I should not be surprised the three tanks wound up on the west side of Malinta Hill. If these pictures were taken on May 6 shortly after the surrender, that might be surprising, but I feel sure they were taken over the next few days after that (see the USN car apparently painted with Japanese letters. Could that have happened the afternoon of the 6th? Somehow I doubt it). With the east side of Corregidor secure, the Japanese would want their armor positioned west of Malinta Hill where the majority of our troops were, waiting to present themselves, surrender, and head over to the 92nd Garage area. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't both roads that go around Malinta Hill impassable at this time? That would mean the tanks would have had to be barged over to Bottomside, or trek themselves through Malinta Tunnel. I don't have the dimensions of the tunnel width and height but would bet tanks can get through it. (Wainwright thought so.). P.S.--Sorry about the late edits on this and other recent posts, guys. A couple of Photobucket images dropped off overnight for some reason and I had to redo them. I have also tried repeatedly to sharpen the images of the background buildings in the tank photo. I've also tried to get rid of the grainy appearance some of the "Philippine Expeditionary Force" images have (they don't look like that in the book. My wife thinks it's a digital thing). I'm not real happy about it so far (#*#**# ?!!) and its been frustrating. Guess it's because I'm new at this and there's been a shallow learning curve. P.S.S.-- I also confess I stopped typing after college 30 years ago, and completely forgot how to when I was introduced into the world of computers some years back. Still hen-peck one key at a time-
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Post by okla on Nov 5, 2010 7:17:23 GMT 8
Hey Chad....You may very be right, but I can't believe those Japanese "dogfaces" would pass up an American helmet lying right by the roadside. Any self respecting GI would grab it up and sell it to some sailor (no offense intended,lol) if not sending it home. I don't really think that is an .03 lying to the side of the possible helmet, but is that a rifle almost directly under the "helmet" There might be one of the Emperor's officers just out of the photo frame jealously guarding his "trophies", indeed, if they are such. This officer might even be the photographer. Cheers. Postscript....No doubt about that being s Stuart tank. The very sight of the enemy using our tanks is a real "downer" for me. The Nips captured far too many of our armored vehicles. Many thru just plain negligence/carelessness on our part,i.e, blowing bridges with part of our armor on the wrong side of the river,etc.
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Post by chadhill on Nov 5, 2010 14:29:47 GMT 8
Okla, you make a good point and after enlarging this part of the picture... ...I think you're right that there is no rifle above the "helmet"; it almost looks more like a narrow gauge trolley car rail tie to me.
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Post by chadhill on Nov 5, 2010 14:58:01 GMT 8
Just came across an interesting point in Howell's book (p. 158-159). According to Japanese eyewitness Tadakuni Ichinose, the two Type 97s advanced all the way around the South Shore Road to the west, repeat west, entrance of Malinta Tunnel at San Jose. The Stars and Stripes had already been pulled down, and a white flag run up in its place. The time was about 14:00 on May 6th. If this is so then all bets are off as to when the photos were taken. However, there seems to be some doubt with others as to the time this happened and Tadakuni's claims may have been exagerrated. Maybe we'll never know?
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Post by okla on Nov 6, 2010 4:28:13 GMT 8
Hey Chad....I don't have a library worth bragging about, but I do have a bit of material on the PI Campaign of 1941-42. I have gone over, in the last day or two, everything in my possession detailing the surrender and occupation of Malinta Tunnel. Not one description of those activities mentions any tanks passing thru Malinta. It definitely was large enough to accomodate such movements by the type tank (including our Stuart that was in their hands)being utilized by the horde from the North, but the narratives of different people present at Malinta make no mention of such movements by the enemy armor. Japanese foot soldiers, armed with explosives attached to poles, flame throwers "at the ready" etc, moved thru, exiting at Bottomside, but no armor. I suppose we will have to take Mister Ichinose's word for it. Maybe those vehicles pushed their way around Malinta on the South Shore Road. I have no idea what shape that passage was in, whether it was blocked by removable debris or sections had collapsed into the Bay,etc, but evidently this was the route followed by the tanks into San Jose. Seems that reloading them onto barges and unloading at Bottomside was not an immediate need. Maybe it was done later at their leisure. Just my humble. Cheers. Postscript....That Stuart in Japanese hands still irks me bigtime.
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Post by chadhill on Nov 6, 2010 5:52:25 GMT 8
By golly okla, I don't recall ever reading about any tanks going thru the tunnel, either. I'm going to do some more digging around on that. I may be mistaken but am almost sure that one or both of the roads around Malinta Hill were impassable.
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Post by batteryboy on Nov 6, 2010 8:29:18 GMT 8
The tanks did not pass inside Malinta. The Chi-ha was bogged down during landing and had to be towed out using the two M3 after actual fighting has died down. The Japanese did a propaganda landing on James Ravine and other places after the actual surrender. The tanks were off loaded into the docks and were used again for propaganda purposes.
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