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Post by oozlefinch on Sept 18, 2012 7:48:05 GMT 8
John - I don't necessarily agree with your theory of those being 155mm howitzer projectiles. 1) All of the 155's on Corregidor were GPF's, not howitzers. 2) All of the projectiles I viewed on any site showed that approx 1/3 of the shell was straight and smooth forward of the rotating band in order for the shell to create a somewhat airtight seal so that the explosive gasses would propel the projectile. The objects in the picture appear to be curved all the way front to rear. 3) A 155 projectile, absent the fuse, is about 24" long. The objects in the photo appear to be in the range of 4' long. I'm not saying that these objects can't be artillery rounds, of some sort, I just don't what kind they could be.
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Post by sherwino on Sept 18, 2012 8:15:21 GMT 8
I'm still unconvinced if it's an artillery or a bomb. It looks too long and/or skinny for an artillery(I don't know if it's some sort of an AA round). It could be shorter if it's a 155mm. Where's Batteryboy?
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Post by fots2 on Sept 18, 2012 11:22:13 GMT 8
So far I would have to agree with oozlefinch. I won't repeat what he said. For me AA shells seem to be the best match to date although the rounded look is throwing me off.
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Post by JohnEakin on Sept 18, 2012 20:47:44 GMT 8
OK, ya made me do a little more research and now I'm absolutely convinced that those are 155mm projectiles used in the M1917/M1918 GPF guns, of which there were many on Corregidor. Battery Sunset is one example of a 155 battery corregidor.org/fieldnotes/htm/fots2-110514.htmThe only thing in the photo for scale is the GI and the stacks are just short of his waist. 155mm is 6 inches and a bit and I count 5 layers of shells, but there could be 6 so that would be 30 to 36 inches. Also, I can't tell if they are laid on dunnage or not, but figure an extra inch for each layer of dunnage - five layers would be 42 inches. Also, 155mm rounds are the smallest I find photos of with the lifting ring on the nose. The length of 155mm projectiles pictured around the internet appear to typically be 5 to 6 times the diameter - 30 to 36 inches, roughly, but there are dozens of various types of rounds and the length varies considerably. A 24 inch long 155mm round would only be 4 diameters long which would be very unstable in flight. I wasn't aware of it, but all large separate loading artillery projectiles are tapered both to the front and rear (sometimes they also have a boattail). Only the area at the rear of the front tapered area and the rotating band (about 1/4 of the distance from the base) actually engage the lands of the barrel (the rotating band does not provide a gas seal). The rotating band is usually protected during shipping by a grommet.
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Post by pdh54 on Sept 19, 2012 5:22:13 GMT 8
Hi all, FWIW--- Sunday night I found a website, ALLEXPERTS, that I thought I would try asking about the type of ammo in the picture. Below is a copy of their response, including my original query. I don't know if it helps or adds to the confusion. Military History/Answered Question Expert: Paul Sutton Subject: ID of ammo stored in Malinta Tunnel/Corregidor LIFE Magazine photo Question:
LIFE Magazine photo Malinta
Hello, I am a member of a forum, corregidor.org, and recently I posted a photo from WWII era of ammunition stored in Malinta Tunnel. I know nothing about the different types of large ammo. My reason for posting the picture was to show how the Army might have used the tunnels/laterals for storage of large quantities of things. Two months ago we had been talking about a lot of torpedoes the Navy had shipped to Corregidor from Cavite Ship Yards for storage before the Japanese arrived, and how they might have been stored in the Navy Tunnel portions of Malinta Tunnel.
My question is whether you could hazard a guess as to what type of ammunition this is. Could you also comment on the fact that these stacks look like they are curved? Is this maybe an optical illusion or are these things curved, in that their midsection is a little like a belly bowing out?
Here is a link to the forum page; corregidor.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1291
and I will attach the photo.
Thank you so very much for your time and help on this.
Patty Answer: Greetings I am glad to help. I enjoyed the discussion on your forum. From what I can see these look like large artillery shells for a M1905 6 inch gun. On Corregidor there were several fixed mortar and tube artillery positions for a large variety of weapons. These are not aerial bombs. I have included some links that might also help.
Thank you corregidorisland.com/guns.html
books.google.com/books?id=7ZNOPvCKK-0C&pg=PA45&lpg=PA45&dq=Corregidor+mor
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Board_of_Fortifications
Paul Sutton Expertise
I can answer questions on World War Two weapons, tactics, and strategy. I can answer questions on Weapons systems and their development. I can answer questions on Space exploration history. I am a World War 2 expert. I study Military Weapons Systems and the usage of those systems. Experience
I work for Saint Petersburg College as a TRS or Technology resources specialist. I read 10 to 15 books a year on World War 2 and weapon systems. I also have a BA in History from USF.
Education/Credentials I have a BA in history from USF.
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Post by Bob Hudson on Sept 19, 2012 6:06:19 GMT 8
It makes sense to me that these are mortar shells. An artillery shell would have the casing with the explosive head pressed / crimped into the casing. The photo shows no such thing. We should have noticed that there was no delineation between a casing and head on the smooth and curved appearance of the ordinance.
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Post by JohnEakin on Sept 19, 2012 7:45:26 GMT 8
Bob - I agree with your comment that there is no casing such as might be found on a 3 inch AA or even a 105mm gun. Most guns of 155mm (or 6 inches) or larger use separate loading, bagged charge ammunition just as the "big" guns of Corregidor used. They would insert a projectile in the breech then insert the appropriate number of powder bags depending on the desired range.
Whether these were for the 6 inch M1905 or the 155mm M1917/M1918 gun, I don't know. The M1905 was a fixed mount disappearing gun. Batteries Ramsay and Morrison were equipped with these guns, but saw limited service during the 1942 campaign. Considering that each of these batteries had their own magazines (and were exposed to fire from Bataan), it is hard to imagine why they would have gone to considerable effort to move these projectiles to Malinta tunnel.
The M1917/M1918 155mm was a mobile gun often installed on a Panama mount which there seem to be many of on Corregidor. Battery Sunset was equipped with M1917/M1918 guns.
Considering the variety of projectile types for both 6 inch and 155mm guns, I doubt there is any way to tell the difference from the photo.
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Post by oozlefinch on Sept 19, 2012 8:35:02 GMT 8
I still find it difficult to determine what these objects are. If you look at Fots Reply #8, the picture showing the soldiers holding 155mm rounds, they only appear to be approx 2 ft in length. The objects in the photo appear to be at least 3 ft in length, if not longer. The aisle down the middle of the tunnel appears to be no wider than 3 ft. Fots, or anyone else, do you have an approximate width of the lateral tunnels?
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Post by JohnEakin on Sept 19, 2012 9:16:15 GMT 8
Oozlefinch - Looking at reply #8, I'd estimate those projectiles to be more like 30 or 36 inches long. I estimate that by measuring the length by the number of diameters (6.1 inches or 155mm). 24 inches - 4 diameters - in length would be a pretty unstable round.
If you google 155mm projectile and look at some of the pictures you'll find quite a variety of projectile types - smoke, chemical, illumination, AP, WP, anti-personnel - each vary considerably in length, some probably pushing 4 feet.
We'll probably never know exactly what type of projectile these are, but based on what we can see - the GI's height and the number of layers - they are approximately 6 inches/155mm in diameter and we know that Corregidor had two gun types of this size.
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Post by oozlefinch on Sept 19, 2012 11:38:40 GMT 8
John - With all due respect, if the 155mm rounds those soldiers are holding are 30-36" long, those fellows are over 7' tall. Those shells are noted as being 95lbs each. According to Ray Lewis, a 6" DC round was 108lbs, or very similar in weight. I would guess that they are also very similar in length. As to whether the round would be unstable, I believe it would depend more on the rifling of the barrel. Just for the fun of it, I'm gonna contact someone who I believe will know the actual size of the GPF and DF rounds.
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