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Post by EXO on May 15, 2012 11:45:34 GMT 8
In furtherance of the discussions as to the value of high grade early 20th Century Bethlehem Steel, vs posterity/historical significance in the Philippines, let me add this ramble.
Scrapping is endemic here, because, for the most part, there's no profit in stopping it. Historical significance, except on Corregidor, is nominal. That's what makes Corregidor unique, and that's what disgusts me every time some dimwit diminishes the historical significance of Corregidor.
Off Corregidor, scrapping is often supported (funded and protected) by persons with local political power and influence. Everyone knows it's theft, but theft is regrettably the manner in which many mouths are fed here.
Thus, to designate a wreck as a "War Grave" tends towards meaninglessness here as long as there is profit which can be had of it.
Morality has always been an issue of geography, and so too, I guess, is historical significance. It's a complex world, and I don't have time to emote beyond Corregidor's environs, which are complex enough.
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Post by sherwino on May 15, 2012 17:26:43 GMT 8
Yes, it's shocking. There's almost nothing we can do but survey the sites, make some trip reports and share it with everyone before they're gone. I agree with EXO. It's food vs history. And in here, history is kept alive.
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Post by sherwino on May 15, 2012 17:35:15 GMT 8
Brilliant post, Chad.
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Post by okla on May 15, 2012 21:05:08 GMT 8
Hey Chad....Top notch stuff. I never dreamed that the operation of a minefield was so involved. This 'ole goat has just assumed that you planted the mines, designated a passage thru same and they were detonated by either manual or upon contact. It was a most complicated operation. Way beyond my general impression. Seems that I still learn something everyday thanks to folks like you. Where do you come up with all the great "nitty gritty"
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Post by fots2 on May 16, 2012 1:01:30 GMT 8
EXO, I am a little bored tonight so here is a summary of some things I read recently regarding US Army Submarine Mines. Your Point #1: I found a few places where it mentioned that manual operation of such mines was possible. Attached is a photo of a control panel where that could be done. (This panel controlled just one group of the 19 mines). "Effective distance or danger area 75 feet": A mine (or a bomb) does not have to strike a ship to sink it. Since water does not compress, the force of the blast is transferred through the water. Within 75 feet, that type of mine can sink a ship by popping rivets and bending the hull plating which allows water to pour in. Damage surpasses any efforts to contain it so manually setting off a mine ‘near’ a ship can be enough to do the job Your Point #2: It wouldn’t take much of a bow wave to create a 25 degree tilt so it could explode long before reaching the wider part of the bow. A 25 degree tilt is not that much. There are probably many ‘mine to ship’ scenarios which can cause such a tilt. Actually a mine exploding too early to inflict the most damage could be a problem. Manual operation often involved waiting a few seconds to allow a larger section of the ship to pass by the mine before pushing the button. Here is some more detail on firing the mines. The mines could be fired in three ways, listed here in order of tactical preference: 1. Delayed Contact Fire: the mine was manually switched into contact firing status a certain number of seconds after it signaled it had been touched or tipped. 2. Contact Fire: the mine was set to explode as soon as it was touched or tipped. 3. Observation Fire: target was tracked, its position plotted by the mine fire control tower/s, and an appropriate mine in its path was fired at a time when the observers indicated the target was within the kill zone for that mine. Delayed contact fire was preferred because it was thought that the mine would first be dragged underneath the target and then fired after a few seconds' delay, once it had had the chance to contact a more lightly protected portion of the target's bottom. This type of fire required the casemate troops to hear the bell (and see the accompanying signal light) that indicated when a given mine was tipped, wait several seconds, and then throw the firing switch for that mine's group into "fire" position, thus detonating the mine. Contact fire meant just what it said—an entire Group of mines was set by casemate troops so that any mine in the Group would explode on contact (or tipping) by target ships. Observed fire meant that the mines were fired in a fashion similar to that used under the fire control system for the coast artillery batteries defending the harbor: distant observers took bearings on targets though spotting telescopes, and these bearings were used to plot the target's position. Sherwino, that information is sad but reality.
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Post by xray on May 16, 2012 3:43:17 GMT 8
What is the general depths of the waters surrounding Corregidor ?
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Post by EXO on May 16, 2012 4:51:29 GMT 8
Chadhill's post of April 15 in this thread contains the depth soundings around Corregidor.
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Post by JohnEakin on May 17, 2012 3:09:16 GMT 8
I guess it would be a bad pun to say that tides are over my head. <groan>
I couldn't find a nautical almanac for 1941 so I tried to figure out the conditions from the phase of the moon. The SS Corregidor sank on 16 December 1941 about 0100 hours. This was two days before the New Moon that month and I've learned that the highest and lowest tides occur around the full and new moons. Also, it would have been dark as what little moon there was set about 2300 hours that night. I also learned that the highest tides in the Manila Bay area occur during December and June of each year. The maximum tide at Corregidor is 1.5 meters, the minimum minus 0.4 meters.
I was a little less successful at determining the exact state of the tide at the time of the sinking. The best I could do - and I have no confidence in this - was to look at the state of the tide two days before the New Moon last December. On December 30, 2011 the tide was high (1.0 m) at 0035 hours and low at 0845 hours (-0.4 m).
With all that said, the tidal currents are unpredictable, as the invaders found out on May 6 when the tide at the Bataan shore was flowing west and the current was flowing East when they got to Corregidor.
In all this searching, I also found my old YMCA SCUBA certification card issued in 1962. It expires after fifty years so I'm afraid someone else is going to have to lead the dive team. I will be there to hold their beer, though.
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Post by okla on May 17, 2012 4:09:22 GMT 8
Hey John....You, obviously, have put significant effort into your tidal condition research efforts. I think that you should HAVE the beer as a reward for your dedication to the solving of this complex and intriguing riddle. Enjoy, when that time comes, as I am confident it will. Cheers.
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Post by chadhill on May 20, 2012 1:08:48 GMT 8
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