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Post by cbuehler on Mar 18, 2013 9:53:59 GMT 8
Okla,
They are indeed best described as streams or creeks and they are easily forded on foot. I dont know why they were referred to as rivers in the histories. Even the Pantingan, which is relatively large, is not a "river" in the best of terms. It too is easily crossed and filled with large boulders as are most "rivers" in Bataan.
I might add that they do become more like rivers as they join with larger tributaries toward the coastlines.
CB
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Post by victor on Mar 18, 2013 10:34:27 GMT 8
What beautiful vistas and great hiking terrain. Very good cross referencing of maps and research too. You’re living my dream. You found more relics too! You have such good eyes. Even if they’re just on the surface, they would still blend in with the ground. Great eyes! Thanks for posting these and letting us live vicariously through you  |
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Post by sherwino on Mar 18, 2013 15:29:19 GMT 8
I remember someone told me last year that they found a WWII tank buried underneath somebody else's house in Bataan. He didn't spill the beans, no matter how I persuade him, with regards to its location. Perhaps, the story is true.
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Post by fortune40 on Mar 18, 2013 21:08:27 GMT 8
The picture taken by Karl regarding the battlefield for the pockets is too panoramic that i can't comprehend that during war time in 1942 soldiers of 3 nations fought and died there.It is also quite surprising inspite the vicious firefights even at close quarter no bodies of any combatants remained sure is maybe all were recovered.Not the case in SOMME of WW1 until this time bodies of dead soldiers were still being recovered in the same place they fell with all their gears and lots of battlefield munitions from simple ammo to small to large shells.
The war in Bataan which i read somewhere indicates that before the surrender soldiers in field were ordered to destroy all the armaments big or small to render them useless.My interests came into the idea about the ammunition depot of the US Army which were ordered also to be destroyed.This was told by my wife old folks to me that there were large explosions and fire that remains for days.I dont know if there were possibility that this depot be located somewhere for us to discover and find some relics too.!
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Post by cbuehler on Mar 18, 2013 22:35:33 GMT 8
Fortune,
After the battle of the Pockets, the dead were collected and buried by the USAFFE and subsequently collected by the Japanese, so it is not likely any remains would be present here. These were not large battles and the death toll including both sides only numbered in the hundreds.
While the USFIP were technically ordered to destroy everything, it was only sporadically complied with. Massive amounts of usable material remained to be captured by the Japanese.Even the Guerillas used to scour the battlefield areas for usable arms and equipment for a long time after the surrender.
The explosions you referred to were in Mariveles, which was the main location of the Service Command Area. Those massive explosions are often mentioned in the histories, but they apparently did not destroy too much. Mariveles had both Army and Navy depots there. Afer the surrender, the Japanese pretty well cleaned up and took everything possible with the assistance of POW labor.
Nowadays the City of Mariveles has pretty much built over most of the areas, but there are surely some relics remaining. Finding them may no longer be possible, although Bob seems to have found some in the area.
CB
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Post by fortune40 on Mar 18, 2013 23:30:39 GMT 8
Thanks so much Conrad.I'm one of your follower the way you presented the walk to the Points with Karl.I am in my imagination almost seen the area as i have been there,too!It would be much on hand experience if i can walk there too.That Pantingan River where the massacre took place is worth a closed look too.I hope will not be that eerie to go if the place is passable the place where approximately 350 USAFFE soldiers mostly Filipinos met their fate in the hands of cruel Japanese guards. A retribution maybe due to their losses in Points and Pockets.
Well i hope Sherwino can have more info on that tank so that when i go home this April we can have something to looked into..Cheers
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Post by victor on Mar 19, 2013 2:21:46 GMT 8
With regards to battlefield remains and relics, my friend Frank (whom I mentioned in this other thread about relics: corregidor.proboards.com/thread/1407/bataan-relics ) ... He has a poignant story he told me about a class ring and a Filipino officer who may have been interred where he found the ring at. His email below, he typed them in all caps, I just copied and pasted. ---------- HEY VICTOR, I WAS DIGGING ON TRAIL 29 AND WAS BEGINNING TO REALISE I WAS ON THE 91ST DIVISION MASSACRE SITE AS RESEARCH AND THE RELICS WERE TELLING ME. I DUG THIS SILVER OFFICERS CLASS RING WITH THE SOLDIERS NAME INSIDE. IN TIME THROUGH CORRESPONDING WITH VET ASSOCIATIONS I LOCATED THE WIFE WHO LIVED IN NEGROS. A GROUP OF RELATIVES CAME TO SEE ME AND WERE VERY HAPPY . THEY OFFERED ME MONEY ,BUT I SAID THAT NO MONEY WAS NEEDED AND FOR THEM TO UNDERSTAND THE RING MEANT ALOT TO ME AS AN ARTIFACT. I THEN TOLD THEM IT BELONGED MORE WITH THE WIFE AND FAMILY TO BE PASSED DOWN IN TIME.THEY WERE A WONDERFUL PEOPLE. THE BEST PART IS THE WIFE GIVING ME A PHOTO OF HER HUSBAND IN UNIFORM, I WAS JUST AMAZED THAT I WAS LOOKING AT THE OWNER OF THAT RING. HERES THE SPOOKY PART. SHE GAVE ME AFFIDAVITS OF MEN WHO SERVED WITH HIM SO SHE COULD GET HER PENSION. IN THE AFFIDAVITS IT TELLS THAT THESE MEN WERE BEING MARCHED ALONG AS PRISONERS AND CAME ACROSS THE MASSACRE SITE. SAW THEIR LT.'S BODY AND GOT PERMISSION TO BURY HIM . THEY DID IN A FOXHOLE AND THE TOLD WHERE THEY WERE AND ITS RIGHT WHERE I WAS DIGGING . I FEEL I HAD FOUND HIS GRAVE WASHED OUT ON A SLOPE. NEXT TO THE RING WERE 5 OFFICER BUTTONS AND 1 LAPEL OFFICERS INSIGNIA. NO BONES WERE SEEN BUT COULD HAVE DISAPPEARED BY THEN. I REALLY NEED TO WRITE MORE ON THIS IN THE FUTURE. I LATER GOT A COPY OF A LETTER FROM AN AMERICAN OFFICER WHO MENTIONS THIS P.A. OFFICER AND HOW HE WAS ONE OF THE EXCEPTIONAL OFFICERS HE HAD SEEN AND WAS A HERO IN THE WITHDRAWAL TO BATAAN .SO MUCH HAS COME TO ME ABOUT HIM AS TIME GOES.I'LL WRITE MORE LATER, GOTTA GO. REMEMBER BATAAN, FOXHOLEFRANK. |
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Post by sherwino on Mar 19, 2013 12:48:10 GMT 8
A little OT. Fortune, the guy's holding some info from me. Somebody wants to buy the house for a price because of the alleged tank underneath. CB, I used to think that there were almost nothing to find in Mariveles because a lot were retrieved from several years ago, bombs, bullets, guns, boxes of ammunitions, trucks, etc. Scrappers, treasure-hunters, ordinary men and collectors, from low-lying lands to hills. But I was surprised how plenty are the finds and the other stuff lost to the thieves from our friend. I was with Bob, and we're planning to get back for more. Back to the topic: Reading from the letter of Vic's friend sure brings out the excitement in me. There's more to find. |
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Post by chadhill on Oct 20, 2013 0:39:07 GMT 8
LT Malcolm Champlin, USN, began the war as Admiral Rockwell's flag lieutenant. During the Pockets and Points fights he was assigned to General Wainwright as a naval liaison officer. In the 4th Marines R-2 Journal I found the following report from him, dated 16 FEB 42. It is interesting that he notes the Japanese trenches in the "pocket" were connected with tunnels, as shown in the sketch.   |
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Post by okla on Oct 20, 2013 4:17:28 GMT 8
Hey Chad....Thanks for posting. Reading the actual (or copy of) report seems to bring the (largely forgotten by most folks other than we "Geeks")Pockets Battle closer to home. Much more so than if quoted in a regular book. Thanks again.
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