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Post by beirutvet on Mar 13, 2017 9:12:38 GMT 8
MODERATOR'S NOTICE: THE FOLLOWING POSTS HAVE BEEN TRANSFERRED FROM THE "MILE LONG BARRACKS AND THE PACIFIC WAR MEMORIAL" THREAD AS THEY REFLECT A WORTHWHILE DETOUR FROM THE TOPIC OF SUFFICIENT IMPORTANCE TO CONSTITUTE A NEW THREAD. THE SCENE NEEDS SOME 'SETTING UP"Mar 11, 2017 at 8:17pm Post by beirutvet on Mar 11, 2017 at 8:17pm Didn't know it had a basement. Can anyone tell me which section of MLB was the HQ for Mac? Mar 12, 2017 at 6:30pm Post by chadhill on Mar 12, 2017 at 6:30pm Hello beirutvet, I've been digging around, and think I can SWAG where the USAFFE headquarters were at the Mile Long Barracks. Martyn Keen has asked that I respect his copyright and not post crops of the 1936 map on this website, so bear with me through the following verbiage, and pull out your copy of the map if you have one. Scroll to the far east end of Mile Long Barracks. Now look straight down (south) from the barracks a very short distance until you see a tiny structure labeled "Post Sw. Bod. Room & Telephone Control" on the left side, and "Comdg. Genl. Bomb Proof" on the right. This structure looks to be about 50 yards south of the east end of the MLB. A bomb proof shelter for the commanding general must mean the HQ is nearby. I'll SWAG that before MacArthur arrived, Moore had his HQ at the east end of MLB also. MacArthur stood outside the barracks to watch the Japanese bombing on December 29th. But according to the Belotes in "Corregidor, The Saga of a Fortress" (p.51) he ordered his staff to vacate the barracks and take refuge "in the bombproof telephone exchange nearby". This may also be the shelter taken by Jean MacArthur and little Arthur when they evacuated their quarters, as mentioned in "American Caesar" (p.225-226). Mrs. MacArthur repeatedly had a soldier go outside and check on the general's well-being. Below is a crop from one of fots2' photos. I have drawn an arrow to a structure that is at about the same location as the bomb proof shelter depicted on the 1936 map. Can anyone comment on it? (photo courtesy of fots2) Having said all this, I must point out that "The Wainwright Papers Volume 1" (p.24) states that on December 25, 1941 "USAFFE Headquarters command post established and opened in west end of Topside barracks on Corregidor, a large concrete building". This makes no sense to me and I will bet that the author mistakenly got his east-west internal compass mixed up. Captain Grady's book "Surviving the Day" is based on 30 taped interviews he made with co-author Rebecca Dickson in the early 1980s. It is a well written book that I recommend. Read more: corregidor.proboards.com/thread/543/mile-long-barracks-pacific-memorial?page=2#ixzz4bjgC1800Read more: corregidor.proboards.com/conversation/2180?page=1#ixzz4bx8x4DglMar 19, 2017 at 12:49pmNice job, EXO. But should the thread start with these posts?: Best, Chad Am reading "Surviving the Day" by Frank J. Grady and Rebecca Dickson. Grady was an army captain in the 228th Signal Operations Company. He was in charge of the company's crypto unit (not to be confused with the USN CAST unit at Monkey Point). When Manila was evacuated, the 228th left Fort Santiago, and the crypto unit relocated its men and equipment to "the basement of Mile Long Barracks near MacArthur's headquarters on Topside". After the Japanese bombing of December 29th, the cryptos transferred to Malinta Tunnel. Has anyone found the basement to Mile Long Barracks? beirutvet Buff **** chadhillThanks for the response and photo. Some time ago I had asked fots2 what that building was and he said the same thing, switchboard room/telephone control. Does THIS building have a basement?
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Post by Registrar on Mar 13, 2017 10:07:14 GMT 8
Yes, it does have a lower level, which we have inspected extensively. The area is filled with dirt and isn't full height, so getting around in it is somewhat difficult. I'm not sure we got to see the actual concrete floor. At the time, Danny Howell and I were looking for whether there was evidence of a passageway link between the telephone exchange and a stairway up from Middleside Tunnel. The original plans for Middleside Storage System were to go under the exchange, under the USAFFE building and to exit towards a road on the other side of the Senior Officers' Qtrs. My recall, which may be faulty, is that work on the tunnel was halted in the 1930's, for political reasons. One of those conferences where America makes a defense concession in the hope that the other side will make a similar concession, and then they both pretend they are complying, but cheat.
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Post by chadhill on Mar 14, 2017 0:47:13 GMT 8
The original plans for Middleside Storage System were to go under the exchange, under the USAFFE building and to exit towards a road on the other side of the Senior Officers' Qtrs.
Registrar, that would have been quite a project indeed. I wonder how much of it may have been completed. If the portion under the USAFFE building had been finished (or nearly so), that might be the "basement" that Captain Grady remembered. For that matter, is it possible that Grady's crypto team was set up in the basement of the telephone exchange/bomb proof shelter?
I remember reading somewhere that after the fall of Corregidor, the Japanese during interrogations were asking POWs if there was a tunnel connecting the Middleside and Topside barracks.
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Post by EXO on Mar 14, 2017 6:44:44 GMT 8
The Harbor Defense Headquarters Tunnel System, as planned was indeed an extensive project, as originally envisaged in and around 1921. I had acquired a blueprint of it, and the issue which presented itself was how was the HDHQ Tunnel System to be aligned? Using the start point of the Middleside Tunnel, and the large vertical shaft which is near the NE corner of Topside, we could establish it. The design of the HDHQ was initially a very long shaft, and the laterals would not commence until between the Cine and Topside itself. Prior to this, there would be a lower stair shaft, entering from the Middleside end, there would be an upper stair shaft which would dogleg back inside the Telephone Exchange. There would be 30 laterals, numbered from the southern entrance (on the other side of the Officer's Maried Qtrs.) The first 15 laterals would be in a square block style, and they would then come to a central area which would link to Bldg 48, the USAFFE Bldg. There was provision for an elevator there. Laterals 17 to 24, which were to be longer, would then be under the area of the BOQ, and the Cine would be above Lateral 26 & 28. Laterals 25 to 30 would be longer still.
In accord with US dictates of tunnel design, there would be minor shafts linking each set of laterals, so that every place in the tunnel system would give a person a choice of two directions in which to seek the closest route to safety.
Of course, HDHQ was not built (as far as we know) beyond the large hole at the NE alignment of Topside, for "treaty" reasons. (For reference sake, I have called this "Moore's Hole." This isn't its official name, it may not have ever had a name.) At a later stage, the laterals were dug close to the Middleside entrance. The existence of the Middleside tunnel (as we know it today) remained a secret from most everyone without the need to know. Al McGrew spent his first night post surrender there, and the existence of the tunnel came as a complete surprise to him.
One of the great projects we have never completed, is to go down Moore's Hole from the NE alignment of Topside, and see what is in the lateral there above the "shower room" at the far end of Middleside Tunnel. It's a young man's project, that one, requiring abseiling experience.
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Post by EXO on Mar 14, 2017 6:45:18 GMT 8
The Harbor Defense Headquarters Tunnel System, as planned, was indeed an extensive project, as originally envisaged in and around 1921. It would have been as large as Malinta. In my travel I had acquired a blueprint of it, and the issue which presented itself was not so much what it would look like had it been built, but how it was to be aligned. Using as the start point of the Middleside Tunnel, and the large vertical shaft which is near the NE corner of Topside, we figured it could be established.
The design of the HDHQ was initially a very long shaft from the Middleside entrance, and the laterals would not commence until between the Cine and Topside itself. Prior to this, there would be a lower stair shaft, at the Middleside end, with an upper stair shaft which would dogleg back inside the Telephone Exchange.
There would be 30 laterals, numbered from the southern entrance (on the other side of the Officer's Maried Qtrs.) The first 15 laterals would be in a square block style, and they would then come to a central area which would link to Bldg 48, the USAFFE Bldg. There was provision for an elevator there. Laterals 17 to 24, which were to be longer, would then be under the area of the BOQ, and the Cine would be above Lateral 26 & 28. Laterals 25 to 30 would be longer still.
In accord with US practice of safe tunnel design, there would be minor personnel shafts linking each set of laterals at their ends, so that every place in the tunnel system would give a person a choice of two directions in which to seek the closest route to safety.
Of course, HDHQ was not built in its entirety(as far as we know) beyond the large hole at the NE alignment of Topside, for "treaty" reasons. (For reference sake, I have called this "Moore's Hole." This isn't its official name, it may not have ever had a name.) At a later stage, the laterals were dug close to the Middleside entrance. The existence of the Middleside tunnel (as we know it today) remained a secret from most everyone without the need to know. Al McGrew spent his first night post surrender there, and the existence of the tunnel came as a complete surprise to everyone in his unit ("H" 60th)
One of the great projects we have never completed, is to go down Moore's Hole from the NE alignment of Topside, and see what is in the lateral there above the "shower room" at the far end of Middleside Tunnel. It's a young man's project, that one, requiring years of abseiling experience.
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Post by piercebennett on Mar 14, 2017 10:21:43 GMT 8
Originally, my last trip was not supposed to be a solo one. I had a friend who was going to accompany me, but he was unfortunately unable. One of our plans was to take a rope down the upper stair shaft of "Bat Cave". I was not about to make that decent on my own, so that was never something I did last January. (my flash was broken anyway) Fingers crossed a friend and I will make another trip to Corregidor next year, and we'll make our way down "Moore's Hole".
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The original plans show that the various shafts to the surface are dog-leg off-set from the main shaft, and thus one can't draw a simple straight line starting at the Middleside entrance through to under the Telephone Exchange, or via "Moore's Hole" and extrapolate it across to the other side of the Senior Officers' Married Qtrs. I suspect that "Moore's Hole" and the "shower room" are connected by some shaft, but the length of the shaft entirely eludes me, and the angle. (Have any of you noticed that at the very top of the shower room, there is a hole with a straight edge, about the size of a trapdoor. This indicates to me that Moore's hole was dug down towards Middleside, not upwards from the shower room. Martin Keen had drawn a profile of the HDHQ based on the plans I supplied him, and I asked him to do an overlay, and he did, and which I have still. But it was around that time that my enthusiasm to write an article about my suspicions disappeared. At some point, the decision must have been made to quit on the HDHQ project and to develop Malinta instead (not necessarily at the same time.) Anyone who has seen inside Middleside Tunnel knows how rough and unfinished it is, so it's most likely that it had been closed for years since during the 1920's, hence very few people knew it existed. That it even existed was probably a top secret, given the curiosity of the Japanese, Washington Treaty obligations, and military secrecy generally.
This is an important aspect of pre-war Corregidor and would justify an entire thread itself, and if Martin Keen is OK with it, we could publish the "map treatment." We probably could anyhow under "fair use" and "educational" but I'd rather not. - EXO
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Post by chadhill on Mar 14, 2017 11:23:53 GMT 8
EXO, thank you for this information. It was something I had never heard of before. Also must confess I knew little about Middleside Tunnel other than what I saw in one of fots' posts years ago, and a short account I read in the book "Don Jose" about men from Battery H, 60th CA who took refuge there after the surrender. I had to pull up fots' post tonight to even remember where it was (that memory lapse could be due to approaching age 61, too). (chart and labeling courtesy fots2) For more see (scroll most of the way to the bottom): corregidor.proboards.com/thread/607/bombproof-infantry-quarters-james-ravine So "Registrar" and Danny Howell were looking for a tunnel between the Middleside Tunnel airshaft and the telephone exchange/bomb proof shelter, about 50 yards south of the corner of Mile Long Barracks. This tunnel was planned to continue to building 48 (which is south of the cinema) with various laterals along the way. Fascinating. Studying the chart above, such a tunnel would have possibly passed underneath, or around, the east wing of Mile Long Barracks. All of this information makes me even more curious about Captain Grady's statement of setting up the crypto unit in the "basement" of Mile Long Barracks. Pierce, if I can make it back to The Rock next year (that will be 30 years since the last time), lets grab these guys and check out Moore's Hole.
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Post by Karl Welteke on Mar 16, 2017 19:34:39 GMT 8
Someone did go down Moore’s Hole! The on-island CFI supervisor, Mr. Ron Benadero (Ron), told me this story many years ago and I have forgotten some of the finer details. A foreigner, not an American, with the knowledge of Ron did go down that hole, landed on the bottom and let go of the rope. But the bottom was not the final bottom, it went horizontal some distance. At the end of this horizontal stretch it dropped down to the real bottom which was too high and steep to jump or climb down. I do not remember the distance or the height of the drop to the real bottom. So this foreigner hollered for help and Ron rescued him by hauling a ladder thru the tunnel and so the fellow was able to descend all the way to the bottom and walk out. Ron is still the supervisor on the Island and next time I will ask him to refresh this story; it was an exciting event for Ron also, having to rescue someone! V629. This is the airshaft opening of the Middleside Tunnel near the east end of the so-called Mile Long Barracks in the former Fort Mills on Corregidor Island. I estimate it is about 6 feet in diameter but I don’t know how deep it is. V630. This is a little deeper view into the airshaft opening of the Middleside Tunnel near the east end of the so-called Mile Long Barracks in the former Fort Mills on Corregidor Island. I estimate it is about 6 feet in diameter but I don’t know how deep it is. I have visited the entrance of this hole recently and nothing has changed.
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Post by chadhill on Mar 17, 2017 7:41:18 GMT 8
These photos have wetted my interest even more, Karl. Thank you for posting them.
I wonder if the "horizontal stretch" with the steep drop-off that the foreigner encountered is where the lower stair shaft was intended to join the upper stair shaft, mentioned by EXO above. Can someone describe the shower room?
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Chad, I'll append my comments to make things more easy to follow.
The shower room wetted your interest, eh? I'm old school, the worse puns are, the better they are.
The shower room is at them furthest end of the parallel shaft which joins the right-hand-side laterals. Getting there sometimes involves ducking one's head as one attempts not to stand in the mud of the floor, because thre seems to be a constant trickle of water running the other way. Towards the end, the roof gets higher, and there is a pile of rock debris, perhaps three to five metres high. The pile indicates that a fair amount of rock has come down from above. There is a fine curtain of water, like tiny raindrops falling on the pile, from above in the darkness. You shine your light at the wall, and follow the beam of light with your eyes as you raise it to see where the water is falling from. Tiny drops of water splash on your face. In the beam of your light, at the top of a tall vertical shaft, you can see a rectangular hole in the roof. No light comes to you from that shaft, so you realize that the shaft beyond that "trapdoor" is not to the surface, but to another shaft. You don't stay too long, otherwise you'll end up wet.
When I first looked towards the top of that vertical shaft, in 1978 I think it was, there was a very rough ladder made out of tree branches leaning against the edge of the shaft. It wouldn't have taken a climber more than a few metres. From there on in, it would have been a sheer climb. What had brought me to that spot was that I had been told that the tunnel led all the way to Topside. The ladder was proof, I was told. OK, so maybe some Filipinos had climbed it and come out on Topside. Well, I certainly wasn't climb it, not for all the tea in China.
In about 2002 or 2003, can't recall which year it was exactly, I'd had the idea to go down the hole using the kit of a window-washer I had met in the building where I leased an office in Brisbane. He's told me that he had ropes and stuff which could he couldn't use any longer, because they were out of certification. It seemed like a way to get down there, and with an option to come back up if there was no means to go through the shaft to the trap-door above the shower room. I was discouraged by the weight of what was necessary, and by recognizing that while going down would have been a relative breeze, coming back up would have been beyond my stamina without something like an electric winch, and a sizable support group as well.
Yes, Ron Benadero had told me too about having to rescue someone from that hole, and I don't doubt he did it. But he couldn't recall how far the distance was between the Moore's hole, and the trapdoor. There was also the possibility that so much loose rock, mud and greenwaste, had fallen (or been thrown) down Moore's Hole, that the shaft to the trapdoor had been long since covered up.
So the whole project faded from mind, until recently, when you guys brought it up. Ain't life great! Now, lest some wiseacre might suggest we resurrect the plan, let me say "There's no bloody way!" - EXO
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Post by chadhill on Mar 18, 2017 7:10:00 GMT 8
Thanks EXO, for this excellent description, including the "shower room" and "trapdoor". I have a much clearer picture in my mind. Sounds very intriguing and worth a look . I have read that when the order came to surrender, men waiting in the tunnel disassembled their weapons and scattered the parts, together with bandoliers of grenades, "behind the bridging of the tunnel". I presume this means beyond the laterals, when referenced from the tunnel entrance (Everett D. Reamer, Battery F, 60th CA, in his book "Unconquerable Faith", p. 49). It would indeed be nice if Martyn Keen could be agreeable to the "map treatment". To compliment EXO's description, here is a passage by fots2 from the "Bombproof Infantry Quarters in James Ravine" thread: Middleside Tunnel had two parallel shafts dug straight into the hillside. Five perpendicular laterals connected the main shafts plus two more laterals are incomplete. You can walk upright in this tunnel.
At the rear of the right-hand shaft is another shaft heading up to the surface. It has a short horizontal section before appearing on the surface on Topside a bit north of the Mile Long Barracks.
Today the right-side entrance is collapsed. Evidence of this on the outside is a big concave in the hillside. On the inside you can see collapsed tunnel at this location. The left side entrance is how we get into the tunnel now.
A lot of this tunnel floor is covered in thick bat crap. It is like walking on a sponge as many bats live in there now. One area in the tunnel had fires so intense that the rock melted and was dripping. The solid drips are still there. corregidor.proboards.com/thread/607/bombproof-infantry-quarters-james-ravine
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