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Post by okla on Jul 12, 2011 0:31:47 GMT 8
Hey Fots....Speculation is what keeps us "hung up" on the "Rock", doncha think. Thanks for the new "poop from group". Cheers.
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Post by okla on Jul 13, 2011 6:40:33 GMT 8
Hey Fots....Since our last comments, I have been thinking (a process that Wife says, in my case, is both dangerous and a waste of time) and am wondering if Morton is saying that these sets of concrete trenches were of a pre war nature and the Gyrenes were involved in preparing defensive positions to repel the invaders at the beaches and the "final defense" line was conjured up in peace time preparations. Does my query make a lick of sense to you or am I talking in circles? If I am understanding the author, he is saying that some planning was done "way back when" and there was a real fear that Bataan would be a jumping off spot for the enemy and that there was a definite concern of not being able to hold them off the island and the "tailside" area would be forfeited. Since, I am sure, the "Brass", obviously, didn't expect this final defense line to hold till the Pacific Fleet arrived from San Diego/Pearl Harbor, many weeks away, just what was expected of the defenders. Maybe just what did happen, was what was planned for...i.e., resist as long as possible on the beaches, withdraw to the final line, taking as large a toll on the Japanese as possible, and running up the white flag when Malinta Hill was in jeopardy. That is just what did transpire. Maybe Skinny Wainwright was just following the script as he knew it was written. He realized nothing more really could be gained by further resistance. What keeps gnawing at me is when, during the late 1930s, (or a bit later) did the guys in Intramoros realize that Bataan might not be able to hold till the full weight of the US could relieve the USAFFE defenders. Somebody in the higher echelons in Manila (or maybe the Commander of the Island Forts,etc) was being more realistic than the guys who drew up Plan Orange, it would seem. You see now why Wife thinks I have taken complete leave of my senses??? She, somehow thinks, that cutting the grass,etc is of more importance than the 1942 PI Campaign. You now see why I question the giving to women the right to vote. Cheers.
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Post by fots2 on Jul 13, 2011 12:44:03 GMT 8
Hi okla,
From the information on maps and the total number of trenches we see today, it seems that they were a combination of pre-war AND hurried war-time defenses.
I really don't know at what point the Brass changed their thinking from seaborne invasion only to the possibility of having an enemy approaching via Bataan and Cavite. It seems that even Plan Orange recommendations were not taken seriously until too late.
The guys in Intramuros were probably thinking with military minds. It was the guys with political minds that screwed them.
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Post by victor on Jul 13, 2011 19:55:30 GMT 8
Hi Fots, I echo Okla's thanks and grateful sentiments for your pictures and commentaries. I haven't read through all the comments in the thread (I'm at work and just stealing a glance - have a ways to go before retirement). The pictures and commentaries are wonderful and a way for us to live viaciously through your exploration. Congratulations on not encountering any snakes! --victor
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Post by EXO on Jul 13, 2011 20:12:08 GMT 8
Generally, I don't think that artillery ammunition was being stored in the deep tunnels such as RJ-43, because it is better stored relatively near a gunsite in a shallow dug-pit, such that an explosion will not spread a wave of shrapnel across the landscape. Rather that the deeper tunnels were for CP's, and personnel shelter.
Small-arms ammunition, is another issue, I guess.
But your point is valid, that the RJ-43 Tunnel was far closer to one end of the defense trench line than it was to RJ-43, and was on a relatively level line with the near end of the line. I think that's a very significant, determinative factor that you have established there.
It's a good point that you are making that RJ-43 had that dual purpose - perhaps the fact of a lateral supports this. But of the two purposes, I think your finding about the trench-line proximity gives the tunnel a far different purpose or priority.
In order to dig a personnel shelter tunnel, I have always maintained what I learned from Danny Howell - that a minimum overburden (ie headroom) is necessary between the tunnel shaft itself and the surface that can cushion an artillery hit from above. Get the equation wrong, and a major shelter collapse is the result.
I imagine that aerial bombs require a stronger 'equation', as (generally speaking) they penetrate the ground much deeper than artillery shells.
Any way you look at it, it's no fun playing against the law of averages....
Great work, Fots!!
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Post by fots2 on Jul 13, 2011 20:41:07 GMT 8
Hi EXO,
Good comment about the storage of artillery shells. It brought something else to mind...humidity in a tunnel. Would I be correct in saying that shells, especially powder would not react well to high humidity environments? We all know what a sauna these tunnels can be. Maybe we have another point in favor of this tunnel not being associated with the battery.
Have you ever heard of Battery RJ-43 having any sort of magazine? The gun's 8-inch shells would be unique on Corregidor.
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Post by EXO on Jul 14, 2011 7:53:47 GMT 8
Okla, I'm not saying that RJ-43 Tunnel isn't associated with the RJ-43 gun ...quite the contrary as this would be against the direct evidence of the pipe from the tunnel to the surface. I'm just recognizing the probability of the tunnel having more than a single use. Fots' observation (that the tunnel entrance is at approx. the same height of the trench-line, and not far away from it) are very persuasive that there was a connection. In this instance, one purpose does not preclude the other, they sit quite well together.
I do not think that the issue of humidity is of much relevance in determining shell or powder storage in that tunnel, or of short term storage generally.
Though in matters of artillery, I defer to the redlegs, and to Batteryboy's encyclopedic memory.
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Post by The Phantom on Jul 15, 2011 6:10:47 GMT 8
First, thanks Fots for putting all the Tail side trenches on a map for all to examine along with fine pictures, ............any other kind from your camera, and historic eye?
My comments from what I see in your photos, and all above commentaries, and my own on the ground observations.
To me, the Tail side trenches were designed for several reasons;
1/ In general, final defense lines for an invasion from the Tail area.
2/ Protection of the Eastern entrance to Malinta tunnel from both sides of the road, south and north.
3/ Road interdiction of course, north and south roads, from any direction.
4/ One trench, above 92nd Garage beach, to the west (near the no longer used road, west out of 92nd beach area) and the still functioning road into Malinta east entrance, is between the 92nd Beach and Malinta tunnel, a sea invasion last stop gap location.
5/ The trench line on Artillery Point pictured above, also covers Officers Beach from possible invasion and the other situations listed.
6/ Note the trenches are all angled, (and blocked in the newer trenches on Infantry Point), a lesson learned from World War I. ............................................................................ Other observations.
a/ Troops in those trenches would need a tunnel or cave to run to during shelling and bombardment.
b/ Bomb and shell fragments hitting the sides of the smooth concrete trenches would plaster anyone inside, far from the actual hits.
c/ They also are not deep enough for much cover.
d/ With all the trees stripped from the island they would have stuck out like a sore thumb from observation balloons etc.
e/ As fots mentioned, there is some damage to some areas of these trenches but overall there is little damage done, possible signifying none use.
f/ The surrender occurred in 1942 before the Japanese got to their perimeters.
g/ Another concrete trench I have observed in on the road going south from Topside, on a sharp corner below the Swimming pool area. It's end is also right above the present road but also looks relatively undamaged and unused for the purpose it was designed for.
Always good to see all the information that we get to discuss on this site. Thinking out loud...............
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Post by fots2 on Jul 15, 2011 8:44:12 GMT 8
Very good observations there Phantom. I agree about the trenches. We can have a look at the northern one next time you are in town.
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Post by oozlefinch on Jun 19, 2012 5:18:10 GMT 8
Thanx for all the info on the concrete trenches. I knew of a couple of them, but am amazed that there were that many more. I first saw the one on the west side of South Beach back in '87 and wondered why there weren't more of them. Now I know there were.
When I first learned of, and saw, the RJ-43 tunnel, people were telling me it was for ammunition storage for Battery RJ-43, but I didn't buy it. I've always thought it was a war time built tunnel with a similar purpose to the infantry tunnels in James Ravine and at Battery Point.
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